IMSA DPi Discussion

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Matt

Those new P1 projects won't materialize. History has shown that.

Why does that matter? History doesn't always repeat itself. To me that's like saying the future dpi projects won't materialize.

[Akrapovic]

I don't see how it's circling the drain, just because P1 is struggling. There are so many back-up classes that are ready to jump in if needed. You could easily drop P1 and GTE-Am if things got really bad and introduce GT3 and LMP3, since ACO already have classes with these cars in them.

It isn't looking like it'll be a classic year, but 28 cars is not circling the drain.

[carbsmith]

An important note, in any given international 6 hour race there is 4 titles involved:

FIA World Endurance Championship for LMP1
FIA Endurance Trophy for LMP2
FIA GT World Championship for LM GTE Pro
FIA Endurance Trophy for LM GTE Am

Also formerly the FIA Endurance Trophy for LMP1 Private Team. LMP1 and GTE Pro are the only two categories that meet the requirements for an FIA world championship and they had a hell of a time convincing them the third class in a four class series should be one as it is.

[Akrapovic]

That's about par for the course now days though. IMSA has 4 titles for the 4 classes, plus the NAEC. At one point they had the Green X Michelin Challenge Cup Trophy Event Thing. That thing that nobody knew how it worked or who won - the winner was announced via an excel spreadsheet formula that spat out a team name.

I don't think anyone except the drivers and teams really care if something is a trophy or a championship. The end result is the same to the viewers.

[carbsmith]

The point is really that the championship exists for the sake of LMP1 and everyone else just gets to show up. Without LMP1 there basically isn't a series, in the same way the FIA GT1 World Championship was predicated on being GT1. That will pretty much only happen if people start insisting on racing Le Mans without doing the WEC though, the prospect of winning the 24 hours overall will always attract someone.

Mind you were the scenario to happen the resulting Le Mans Series would have a pretty incredible LMP2 championship anyways.

[Akrapovic]

It doesn't really matter why everyone else turns up though does it? You still have Gold and Silver drivers bringing large amounts of cash and funding teams. Even if LMP1 disappeared tomorrow, Thirriet would still be throwing cash at his car, and Rusinov would still be throwing dodgy Russian money at his car, whilst DC Racing would still be running, etc.

I think I'm missing your point. Most of the focus is on LMP1. If it disappeared, the whole thing still exists. If LMP1 goes away, it isn't impossible to race with LMP2 as the top class, just because it's listed as a Trophy rather than Championship.

[Damian Baldi]

As things are today, any of the current two LMP1 manufacturers could leave, they have the right to do it as Audi did. Until the end of 2016 it was another story because with two team in LMP1-P and with lot of different cars at P2, the manufacturers could leave and there would been something to show. But as things are today, it is very importante to have more LMP1-P next year just in case the higher class make implosion.

[TF110]

Manor is joining and Kolles will stay, there's at least 2 teams plus Toyota and Porsche. Neither has said they're pulling out. Now is a better time to stay put and build up because they have less competition.

[Maelochs]

I had a ridiculously long, boring response, and luckilly for all you guys, lost it before I could post.

Basically, as the author said, WEC is already in its second iteration ... this one might or might not survive.

I think it will, but the ultra-expensive P1-H class might not ... if Toyota decides the quarter billion dollars it costs is more then the profit the program provides in increased sales of Corollas ....

Also, while people might be buying more hybrids, most people buying hybrids aren't likely to be impressed by racing, which they will likely either ignore or find wastefully destructive ....

FIA might have gotten carried away with itself with P1-H. Yes, factories want to showcase their latest tech, but really, only if if t sells car. Audi was pushing Performance diesels, so it lobbied for pro-diesel rules.

Well, VW drove a stake through the heart of that idea. And hybrids ... the hybrids people want are econobox cars with comforts, not 918s. So ... P1-H might go away.

In which case, a bunch of teams will jump into P1-L as a suddenly affordable way to race in the top class in the world. And if this happens ... a DPi-based team might have a chance. Some manufacturer would need to commit a bundle of money byt Not the $200 million minimum P1-H costs ... and not building a new car every year or two.

FIA has a habit of totally revamping the rules every three years, pretty much obsoleting previous version. If they cannot get away from that silliness, I don't see P1-H surviving ... it costs too much, and who besides Porsche really stands to gain from designing and building a pair or trio of new $100 million hybrids every couple years? Does Porsche even benefit?

FIA might start to feel the economic pinch now that Audi is gone ... and if Toyota leaves, I don't see any factory eager to jump in until the rules changes to a more affordable formula.

[Damian Baldi]

I'm saying from years ago, that Toyota will leave as soon as they win Le Mans. If that occurs, then Porsche will leave too and we will have private P1 teams and why not some DPi team joining too with upgraded cars.

[TF110]

Why would Toyota leave if they win? The rules are good for at least 3 years. If they have the car to beat, you stay and win more. They win LM once and they only tie Mazda. They win it twice or more, no Asian brand can claim that . And there's no way they spend a quarter billion on their program lol. They were quoted as saying it's about a quarter of what they spent in F1. So something from $300 million to $75 million. It looks the direct opposite of Toyota leaving. They finally committed to 3 cars for Spa and Le Mans, to me it looks like they're starting to put MORE into the program not wrapping it up. And they just signed the WTCC champion, for what, a one-year deal? Same thing with Porsche. They have a car eligible for 3 seasons, what's the point in quitting? I bet the WEC is giving them nice incentives and reasons to stay in the future.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by TF110

Why would Toyota leave if they win?

The feeling I get is, maybe because of the amount Toyota spent in F1 for basically no results (Toyota was in F1? When?) Toyota mangement has been pretty unsure aboutthe P1 program all along ... sort of, "If you can do it for cheap, go ahead, but you had better get results and it had better not get expensive."

I feel like Toyota very begrudgingly sprung for a third car because they saw how close the team came in 2016 ... but I also get the feeling that they want the PR coup and then cut the program and spend the money telling everyone they are Le Mans winners.

Who cares if they tie or beat Mazda? I don't feel like Toyota has a strong racing culture at the top, the way Audi or Porsche might ... so they don't care about what Mazda might have won, or what Honda might win ... if they can call themselves "Le Mans winners" they have gotten as much out of the program as it can give them.

We think like racers, where a win is a win and moire wins are better, per se. At Toyota, if they thought that way, they;'d have had a three-car program from 2015. I think that there is tension on the Toyota board, with the "racers" being given a little cash, but the bean counters just dying for a chance to cut it out of the budget ... and I bet as soon as they win Le Mans, the cars go into museums, only seen again in ads.

After all, they are spending that $75 million or $100 million or whatever per year, whether they build new cars or not. New cars would have come on top of that.

Also, I will bet Porsche won't stint on its development budget, which means Toyota has to up the ante each year whether the regs demand it or not ...

Particularly since Porsche knows, it only has to beat Toyota to win Le Mans, and the championship. And Porsche Does have a culture of competition ... Porsche is completely willing to build a whole new factory complex to enter P1, while Toyota was willing to rehire its F1 engineers.

If Toyota wins Le Mans this year, Porsche will up the ante ... will Toyota Racing be able to convince the board of directors to open its wallets?

[Damian Baldi]

For me, Toyota have the karma of losing the race three times. People remember this, they will need to win the race ten times to make people forget the defeats. So, I think they don't want to win the race, they have to win the race, and after that, they will focus in another thing.

[Matt]

Toyota also has the new WRC programme.

[chernaudi]

WEC's LMP1 is IMO circling the drain as far as short term growth because the ACO pushed too hard too fast with hybrid tech in the short term. They should've stuck with the 2011-2013 rules (maybe somewhat tweaked) for a couple of years longer. Then they should've ratcheted up the hybrid tech.

Audi Sport pulling out IMO had relatively little to do with dieselgate outside of it providing easy justification for them to pull the plug until new rules come into effect. Dieselgate wouldn't have done any favors with Audi continuing with a diesel engine, but because of the shifting emphasis on hybrid regs, they would've had to have abandoned the diesel engine sooner rather than later anyways to remain relevant from a performance standpoint.

But that would've forced them to run a gasoline engine, and with apparent redundancy of VAG running two programs with similar technology (Audi, Porsche and Toyota were already running broadly similar battery pack hybrid systems), plus the rules forcing everyone into basically the same direction, there was no incentive for Audi to continue unless they could do something different.

Not to mention return on investment: Audi were spending a lot more to only win two races a year the past couple of years than they did in 2012/13 when they dominated the WEC. IMO, the insane push for hybrid tech and switch from sonic air restrictors to fuel flow to control engine power had a lot to answer for on jacking up the cost on the ROI front. And it was such increased costs that made it less and less worth it for Audi, especially with limited scope for something unique on the tech front.

Dieselgate can't be discredited for the Audi Sport exit, but it's not for the reasons some want us to believe it is, and IMO, it's a cover for more convoluted, yet more easily understandable, reasons and they do show some problems with the ACO's methodology.

Cheaper tech while opening up the rules and avenues for development could've been a huge boon for the ACO. And sadly, as much as the basic concept seems ripe for it, it's also why DPI can't work as the top class at LM or in the WEC.

As much as I'd like to see stock block engines be a viable option for LMP1 like they used to be, having limited scope for development to keep cost down is not only IMO against the spirit of LMP1, but also has been shown to be an oxymoron. It may narrow the gaps between the haves and have nots, but that smaller gap ironically becomes harder to overcome if the rules paint everyone into a smaller box.

A mix of the two concepts while encouraging new technical avenues whilst encouraging sensible cost (aka, a slow and steady/keep it simple stupid approach) is the way to go for LMP1 in the future, especially if the ACO want to boost entries. But going full out DPI won't work. What works for a regional championship might not work for a world championship or the rest of the world. Touring car racing and stock car racing are popular in different parts of the world. Broadly, they're the same thing, but below the surface, they're different sub-classes of the same broad formula, and are popular in different forms in different parts of the world.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

I don't feel like Toyota has a strong racing culture at the top

Is that so


In the last 3 decades the only manufacturer that has had a more consistent presence at Le Mans than Toyota is Porsche, and unlike Porsche that dropped their factory efforts to build an SUV, they only left to race Formula 1. Toyota isn't a stupid enough company to keep going that long if they just want to win a race. Top level motorsport is important to the company. That's why they went whole hog with NASCAR.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

Is that so


In the last 3 decades the only manufacturer that has had a more consistent presence at Le Mans than Toyota is Porsche, and unlike Porsche that dropped their factory efforts to build an SUV, they only left to race Formula 1. Toyota isn't a stupid enough company to keep going that long if they just want to win a race. Top level motorsport is important to the company. That's why they went whole hog with NASCAR.

Or maybe the U.S. is a huge Toyota market and people really like NASCAR in America?

yeah, since 1985 there have been some Toyotas at Le Mans ... but if the company is so dedicated and it means so much, why has it never won?

Mention Audi and Porsche ... those are companies who were Determined to win. Peugeot was Determined to win. Toyota showed up.

Further, Toyota's management today is not the same as it was in 1985, or 1995. As I said quite clearly, I don't see a culture of competition in the top ranks of current Toyota management ... if there had been, the P1 team wouldn't have to beg for so long just to get a third car for Le Mans.

Go ahead and try to explain to people that Le Mans means more to Toyota than it does to Audi and Porsche. People don't have enough humor in their days.

[chernaudi]

But then again, Toyota hasn't won LM yet, and they were gone from endurance racing for over a decade, and in fact left their LM contract a year early (granted, redesigning the GT-One for the 4650mm max length rules for 2000 onwards for just LM 2000 was a huge investment for just one race).

Only other company that has supported LM and endurance racing as much as Porsche or Toyota the past 20, 25, 30 or so years is Audi, and even they're gone from the top rung of the sport, at least for the time being.

We won't know what Toyota will do should they win LM. I'd love to see them win at least twice before they leave if they do. I'd rather have them win a couple of times than a Porsche whitewash. And, if one will argue that Audi or even Toyota win with flimsy competition, well, not all of Porsche's wins were barn burners like 1987 and 1998 was. In fact, as is often the case overall at LM through the years, it was a factory team dominating against either privateers or against a factory that couldn't find its butt with both hands.

[Maelochs]

Well if it comes to hoping ... I hope a third team joins P1-H and both Porsche and Toyota make long-term commitments. I have been a Porsche fan since I was about six years old, and a Toyota fan since they came back to challenge Audi.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

the P1 team wouldn't have to beg for so long just to get a third car for Le Mans.

Porsche has only run three 919s once. I guess they don't care about racing.

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Or maybe the U.S. is a huge Toyota market and people really like NASCAR in America?

I've heard Toyota sells cars in Europe and people like this Le Mans thing.

Originally Posted by Maelochs

if the company is so dedicated and it means so much, why has it never won?

You don't just win races by wanting to. Take 2014. One car fell behind because Lapierre crashed in the rain (and got canned) and the other DNF'd because an FIA sensor broke. What does that have to do with the company's dedication to winning? It's like saying the Andrettis must just not really care about Indy. People give Toyota crap for 2015 but Porsche and Audi have made the same mistakes with cars like the GT1 Evo and R15. You can't look at the TS020's mockery of homologation or the TS040's ridiculously illegal rear wing and think that is a company not trying.

Toyota moving on after they win Le Mans is something I would expect-if they had anywhere else to go. Returning to F1 would mean quadruple the budget without even a likely chance of success, WTCC is kind of a joke, and DTM can't get its act together to even let them race a Lexus. They will probably want to be the first to win Le Mans with a hydrogen car in a few years too.


On the pretense of relevance, considering Lexus was involved in DP for a few seasons I'm surprised there are only rumours for GTLM and not DPi.

[NaBUru38]

Sooner or later, the ACO will have to allow DPi in Le Mans.

To compensate, perhaps they will make LMP2 teams have two pros and two amateurs.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Sooner or later, the ACO will have to allow DPi in Le Mans. To compensate, perhaps they will make LMP2 teams have two pros and two amateurs.

Makes more sense to change P1-L to a DPi inclusive class. That way ELMS teams can do Le Mans without a lot of cost or hassle, and existing WEC P2 teams as well.

However, if even half of the rumored P1-L teams show up ... DPis will be out of luck.

[Akrapovic]

If the hybrid class died, P1 would take off again.

The problem with the layout currently is P1s are pointless. Private teams can't get a hybrid. So you can spend a relatively low amount of money running a P2 car, or you can spend a lot more to run a P1. The P1 car will never win P1, so you'll win nothing. You might as well spend less and get a P2 car, and a chance at a class win.

If the hybrids die, then suddenly P1 is important again. Suddenly you can get a class win, you can win overall.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

If the hybrids die, then suddenly P1 is important again. Suddenly you can get a class win, you can win overall.

Without a reason to have a P1 class, P1 will never be important again. This is a strange dichotomy in the niche world that is sportscars. When we had (American)WSC in the 90's for example, people had plenty of chassis to choose from, and things were vastly more affordable.. if you said that P1H was dead tomorrow, and you could run a P1 car from whatever constructor/manu you wanted, but initial outlay was 2.5 million for car and spares, OR you can have a cost capped P2, run similar speeds and the same races, for 450,000. What is going to win?

If P1 dies, P1 is dead. There won't be a return. P2 just becomes the defacto top class, and everyone is suddenly very happy.. the ability to win O/A at Le Mans is there, the WEC(if you cared enough) is totally relevant, more tracks are wide open to competition.

I guess the point here is, do we really need P1? I'd say no, we really don't. I'd actually like to see DPi expanded on a global scale. It's a cheap investment, more manus can be on board, it gives lots of potential options, and we still can have really good racing.

[TF110]

Toyota has upped their efforts in Le Mans, then rejoined WRC. That looks like a good racing culture and a desire to win in racing. Toyota spent a lot of money in f1 because they had to build up TMG into what it is today. They built everything in house. Other teams outsource to companies like dallara to build their chassis. Even McLaren uses a customer engine. Toyota and Ferrari were the only teams in their day to do everything in house. That's why the budget was so high. And today, Mercedes and Red Bull spend at least the same amount if not more. There are a lot of companies that have not won Le Mans or F1, but not without trying.

Not sure why people think dpi is some savior to the lmp1 class. The survey conducted by Alex Sinclair showed that people do not have a desire to see a dpi lmp1 class with a spec chassis and stylized bodywork-

When asked about the possibility of LMP1 adopting a spec chassis which manufacturers can build around in the future as a cost-cutting measure, the response was profoundly negative.

More than half of all fans rated the idea “1” ,  the lowest possible score available  and the average across the 516 participants came out at just 2.6. It’s clear that what LMP1 H has in its engineering and technological challenges are a real draw to the sport.

That's pretty telling that what lmp1 is right now is popular and if it costs too much then it's not the aco's fault entirely but the teams too. I think the ACO will drop the hybrid requirements but still keep them as an option. Like the Peugeot story, maybe see them making a lightweight class. Running a spec chassis is boring. No one wants to see p2's winning Le Mans. It should be the best machines not some upgraded gentleman's car.