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Old 10 Mar 2014, 01:48 (Ref:3376903)   #226
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When the car moves up (lift/take off).. that thing doesn't help a bit

Only when the car rotates ( moves round /spins), that thing can function as an aero brake
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Old 10 Mar 2014, 02:09 (Ref:3376908)   #227
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Originally Posted by hcl123 View Post
When the car moves up (lift/take off).. that thing doesn't help a bit

Only when the car rotates ( moves round /spins), that thing can function as an aero brake
Yes, you understand correctly now.

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Old 10 Mar 2014, 04:50 (Ref:3376932)   #228
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deltawing should be qualifying in the top 5 on the griddeltawing should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Watch this short clip, this is in 1991, the story starts at about 0:24 and I made the video start right there, so you don't have to waste time:

http://youtu.be/bxlBc1OSVek?t=24s

This is a perfect example of why we need vertical fins! With a vertical fin this take off would have not happened.
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Old 10 Mar 2014, 08:05 (Ref:3376975)   #229
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The side vertical end plates of the rear wind are also clearly much smaller and not tall like Audi and the TS030... perhaps they didn't like to be confused viewed from the rear lol
As you can see from this image Nigel posted, the rear wing endplates extend to the 'floor'. They are not attached to the end of the rear fenders. The fenders curve inwards at the edge. The endplates also have a unique "P" shape up top to "b" shape at the bottom.
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Old 10 Mar 2014, 08:20 (Ref:3376981)   #230
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I don't think we will see much variations track by track because the new regulations gave the teams the chance to build a adjustable wing on the front if I'm not mistaking.
Well even in that case LeMans has its own needs in aero and just adjustable wing wont help alot there.
LeMans has its own needs to all other WEC tracks in calender.
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Old 10 Mar 2014, 08:29 (Ref:3376983)   #231
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....As you can see from this image Nigel posted, the rear wing endplates extend to the 'floor'. They are not attached to the end of the rear fenders. The fenders curve inwards at the edge. The endplates also have a unique "P" shape up top to "b" shape at the bottom.
It is really not so clear what is going on there, but both fenders and wing end plates suppose to be not narrower than 1800 mm. So if the fenders "curve in" as you are saying and the end-plates go vertical all the way to the bottom, they must intersect as they are both 1800 mm wide. So if this is the case, how are they not attached to the fenders?
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Old 10 Mar 2014, 08:41 (Ref:3376987)   #232
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Well even in that case LeMans has its own needs in aero and just adjustable wing wont help alot there.
LeMans has its own needs to all other WEC tracks in calender.
That's the one variation we're probably going to see but nothing more then that. Just like all the previous years.
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Old 10 Mar 2014, 08:49 (Ref:3376989)   #233
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That's the one variation we're probably going to see but nothing more then that. Just like all the previous years.
Yeah
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Old 10 Mar 2014, 10:10 (Ref:3377006)   #234
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It is really not so clear what is going on there, but both fenders and wing end plates suppose to be not narrower than 1800 mm. So if the fenders "curve in" as you are saying and the end-plates go vertical all the way to the bottom, they must intersect as they are both 1800 mm wide. So if this is the case, how are they not attached to the fenders?
It's difficult to say from this picture if the rear wing end plates actually connect to the fenders or not. This being said, assuming that the rear wing end plates run all the way down to the floor as suggested by TF110 (which may be the case), one should not forget that the rear wing is part of the bodywork. Therefore, the bodywork around the rear fenders could theoretically curve inward between the rear wing end plates. The bodywork would still meet the minimum width of 1800mm thanks to the rear wing end plates.
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Old 10 Mar 2014, 21:55 (Ref:3377227)   #235
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It's difficult to say from this picture if the rear wing end plates actually connect to the fenders or not. This being said, assuming that the rear wing end plates run all the way down to the floor as suggested by TF110 (which may be the case), one should not forget that the rear wing is part of the bodywork. Therefore, the bodywork around the rear fenders could theoretically curve inward between the rear wing end plates. The bodywork would still meet the minimum width of 1800mm thanks to the rear wing end plates.
Its almost like the rule with the double endplates on the Bentley Speed 8. You can see it by enlarging the first picture Toyota teased for the video.
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Old 11 Mar 2014, 20:49 (Ref:3377536)   #236
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Here you go. I was able to save this image from YouTube-


Here you can clearly see the gap between the fender and the rear wing endplate.
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Old 11 Mar 2014, 21:01 (Ref:3377544)   #237
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Excellent! Let's see if this will propagate to other teams. It may have some great drag reduction value.
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Old 11 Mar 2014, 21:01 (Ref:3377545)   #238
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Here you go. I was able to save this image from YouTube-


Here you can clearly see the gap between the fender and the rear wing endplate.
Definitely. Good catch
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Old 11 Mar 2014, 21:06 (Ref:3377548)   #239
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Here you go. I was able to save this image from YouTube-


Here you can clearly see the gap between the fender and the rear wing endplate.
good capture indeed, reminds a bit when before 2009 lmp1 had a full witdh rear wing.
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Old 11 Mar 2014, 21:08 (Ref:3377549)   #240
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good capture indeed, reminds a bit when before 2009 lmp1 had a full witdh rear wing.
Well... considering the fact that the cars are now narrower, the rear wing is full-width again compared to the car.
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Old 11 Mar 2014, 21:15 (Ref:3377557)   #241
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Watch this short clip, this is in 1991, the story starts at about 0:24 and I made the video start right there, so you don't have to waste time:

http://youtu.be/bxlBc1OSVek?t=24s

This is a perfect example of why we need vertical fins! With a vertical fin this take off would have not happened.
I strongly disagree. Here's a vid showing a near as similar crash with such a fin. Result: still a major crash from a car going sideways at high speed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfTVJ9sJAD4
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Old 11 Mar 2014, 23:36 (Ref:3377591)   #242
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I strongly disagree. Here's a vid showing a near as similar crash with such a fin. Result: still a major crash from a car going sideways at high speed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfTVJ9sJAD4
Pretty much nothing would have saved that car from flipping in that particular situation!

Let's analyze carefully the dynamics. The car gets hit in the rear left corner. The result is completely blown rear tire! That makes the car "sit" on the ground with the rear left corner. While the car is sitting on its rear left corner, is also spinning towards the left. So now we have a "rocker effect" which means the sitting low left corner results in elevating higher the front right corner. The car is already sidewise, with its right front "up" and its rear left "down" (sitting on the floor). That is a fantastic scenario of more air coming "in" and no air going "out".... at that point nothing can help as the situation only escalates, rapidly.

If that car remained on its four tires and the floor was parallel to the ground at all time, the flip would not have happened, and that is what the vertical fin was introduced for.
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Old 12 Mar 2014, 07:31 (Ref:3377662)   #243
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If that car remained on its four tires and the floor was parallel to the ground at all time, the flip would not have happened, and that is what the vertical fin was introduced for.
That is actually the problem here. The accidents that usually happen dont go the way they planned. Happened with TS030 and the R18 in 2011.

You can put what ever on the car that you think it might be safe in a situation but not a single accident is same and as sayed you cant plan what will happen and those fins sofar were useless actually.
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Old 12 Mar 2014, 07:54 (Ref:3377665)   #244
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deltawing should be qualifying in the top 5 on the griddeltawing should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
True....

Also is true that we will never completely resolve everything... even if we change the rules, there will always be something that is not going to work in all the directions we want. My personal vote goes for "let's live with gravity"

Looking forward to seeing the TS040 in sharper, high res images! Seems like it is going to have some interesting aero solutions.
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Old 12 Mar 2014, 17:23 (Ref:3377871)   #245
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Pretty much nothing would have saved that car from flipping in that particular situation!

Let's analyze carefully the dynamics. The car gets hit in the rear left corner. The result is completely blown rear tire! That makes the car "sit" on the ground with the rear left corner. While the car is sitting on its rear left corner, is also spinning towards the left. So now we have a "rocker effect" which means the sitting low left corner results in elevating higher the front right corner. The car is already sidewise, with its right front "up" and its rear left "down" (sitting on the floor). That is a fantastic scenario of more air coming "in" and no air going "out".... at that point nothing can help as the situation only escalates, rapidly.

If that car remained on its four tires and the floor was parallel to the ground at all time, the flip would not have happened, and that is what the vertical fin was introduced for.
My friend, the Fuji/Nissan vid you used to make your pro-fin point also shows an accident in which a car suffers a blown tire, making your story a bit thin...

I think we'll see them fins disappear at some point. Most likely after a huge crash in which the fin is to blame.

Anyhow, I hope Toyota doesn't suffer from another old and slightly blind Fiar driver in this years race.
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Old 12 Mar 2014, 18:19 (Ref:3377892)   #246
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My friend, the Fuji/Nissan vid you used to make your pro-fin point also shows an accident in which a car suffers a blown tire, making your story a bit thin...
If you watch carefully, in that case the front left tire blows off, not the rear. And just before the "lift", the car slides sideways with its left side forward, so the lack of front tire on that same side makes the car actually lower there. And the right side of the car (which acts like a "rear" at this point, as the car is sliding sideways) is not "shut", but wide open as those tires are in place. Completely different dynamics, even if they may seem very similar at glance.

That said, again, I am not "pro" BHF and not trying to promote anything. A group of people made some rules and looks like for the next three years we are going to roll with those rules. Maybe you are right and one day they will change or perhaps improve, then perhaps we are not going to have BHF anymore. Hence my note in supporting gravity. We can't quite change certain things, so may as well embrace them.
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Old 12 Mar 2014, 19:21 (Ref:3377917)   #247
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Maybe the fin discussion should be in the lmp future regs thread? Not many here like it, but we shouldn't clutter up these car specific threads with talk about their success or failure, right?
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Old 12 Mar 2014, 19:26 (Ref:3377919)   #248
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To get back on topic: I feel the aspect that will make or break Toyota this season will be the engine. They've shown they have the hybrid capability and they're performance at the f1 'aero' tracks has always been good. If they've got that nailed this year, which I'd bet they have, the engine is most likely gonna be the weak link.
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Old 12 Mar 2014, 19:29 (Ref:3377924)   #249
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TMG has a cool entrance display with the 2012 TS030 alongside the WRC Corolla and unraced TF110 (where I took my screen name from)...



As for the engine, Id say theyre in much better shape than last year with the improved efficiency thanks to the higher hybrid allowance and in better shape than Porsche.
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Old 12 Mar 2014, 22:06 (Ref:3377989)   #250
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TMG has a cool entrance display with the 2012 TS030 alongside the WRC Corolla and unraced TF110 (where I took my screen name from)...



As for the engine, Id say theyre in much better shape than last year with the improved efficiency thanks to the higher hybrid allowance and in better shape than Porsche.
I do soooo hope that Toyota'll blast them German cars into the weeds at Le Mans...
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