[BTCC] Round Seven, Croft 18-19 Sept, Races 19,20&21

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Because drivers will still run over at least grass. On the entry where the first tyre stack is placed beyond the external edge of the serrated curbing - which causes the cars' tyres to make a rumbling noise as they all go over them - once an errant driver had knocked the stack out of the way, then following cars on repeated laps just ran at least two wheels over the ground beyond the curbing, which you could witness by the dust that was kicked up by many of the cars. And this meant that, when made possible by a reasonable gap before the cars came around again, the marshals would try to put the first stack back in position. They couldn't do that for the other stack because a) it would have required marshals to actually cross a live track and b) it needed too many bodies to move it because it was so heavy, which any sensible driver would realise before hitting it.

As I have tried to say, it all comes down to a complete lack of discipline by a too many of today's drivers.

MSV's non negotiable sensors whilst unpopular seem to work

[S griffin]

At least it’s not as bad as a couple of years ago when we had those ridiculous little soft barriers on the exit kerbs of corners. Caused about four red flags in qualifying IIRC

[redshoes]

Croft isn't unique in using tyres stacks. Both Thruxton and Oulton Park have tyre stacks on their chicane. As I recall, Snetterton have used them on some corners as well. There are probably some other circuits as well.

Notably some circuits don't use them at club meeting but do when the BTCC is in town. Mainly because BTCC drivers don't seem to understand where the track-limits start and end.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by redshoes

Notably some circuits don't use them at club meeting but do when the BTCC is in town. Mainly because BTCC drivers don't seem to understand where the track-limits start and end.

The odd thing is, as I wrote earlier, the BTCC guys on the whole drove sensibly through the chicane - I can't remember if any of them actually touched the tyre stacks, but I don't think that they did - and, apart from the 1st laps on the races when it was pretty frenetic at the chicane, they all drove through the chicane; the problems arose in the other races, notably the Minis (quelle surprise), the Porsches and the Ginettas. That is except Butcher who missed the chicane after sideswiping his team-mate on the way in and then gained two places by driving at full pelt straight alongside the chicane on the tarmac there, and which I don't think that he gave back.

I do hope that he was penalised for that as it was patently obvious, I thought, that there was no way that he could make the chicane because his team-mate was already alongside another car, and you certainly can't get three cars side by side through the chicane.

[tux]

Twitter discussion about the tyre stacks with some input from current drivers https://twitter.com/timharvey7/statu...513396229?s=21

[AnnoyedMoose]

Some of the replies in that thread are really odd. There's at least one guy saying that safety is the be all and end all even if it means that people can drive wherever they feel like. At the end of the day if drivers didn't cheat there would be no need for the tyre stacks at all.

Problem is with just going for track limit penalties is that it ends up like the Ginetta Juniors at Thruxton. So many appeals they have to reschedule the next race. Drivers arguing that they were pushed over the limit etc.

[billy bleach]

So everyone swerved my MSV sensor question earlier! Not popular but it works!!

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Good luck to Halstead, although I don’t expect him to do any better than Parfitt tbh

I know it was queried earlier of whether Halstead could do any worse (or better) than Parfitt. I thought I'd check how he went in terms of results.

Parfitt's average placing so far is 24th. Halstead averaged 24th.
Parfitt has averaged 0.888 Ind points, Halstead averaged 0.666.
Parfitt has averaged 8.722 JS points, Halstead averaged 8.333.

So in conclusion - Halstead's results didn't quite match Parfitt's, but they were close. Stepping in for a driver, if you can stay within a similar points average indicates a successful result in my book.

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

So everyone swerved my MSV sensor question earlier! Not popular but it works!!

I assume expensive though?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

So everyone swerved my MSV sensor question earlier! Not popular but it works!!

It might be a deterrent during qualifying, but does any driver really car if his times are deleted during a race. And they only seem to give verbal warnings during the race. Maybe if they black flagged the errant driver it may have an effect, but I don't see that happening.

Some of the cars affected on Sunday will face repair bills costing thousands, and yet that didn't seem to defer other drivers taking liberties and hitting the tyre stacks later on in other races. It all comes down to a lack of discipline and self control, not trying to the one who can get away with getting the closest to the tyres without hitting them; there's no prize for that!

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Evantra

I assume expensive though?

The description of the system would suggest so:

'a brand new system, which uses pressure sensors to detect when a car goes off beyond exit kerbs and triggers video footage to be recorded. When a car does infringe the rule, two pictures are taken – a close-up to show the wheel’s proximity to the kerb and a wide image to put the infringement into context [...] linked to screens in race control [...] The technology of track limits sensors and CCTV provide hard evidence. Marshals radio-in to race control if they believe a driver has gained an advantage by exceeding track limits. In
race control, there is an observer watching the new system. The two work in tandem.'

[antnee]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

It might be a deterrent during qualifying, but does any driver really car if his times are deleted during a race. And they only seem to give verbal warnings during the race. Maybe if they black flagged the errant driver it may have an effect, but I don't see that happening.

Some of the cars affected on Sunday will face repair bills costing thousands, and yet that didn't seem to defer other drivers taking liberties and hitting the tyre stacks later on in other races. It all comes down to a lack of discipline and self control, not trying to the one who can get away with getting the closest to the tyres without hitting them; there's no prize for that!

I thought there had been penalties in the past for consistent track limit abuse - 3 strikes is the threshold, starting off at 5s, then 10s, 15s, 30s for each additional strike

[S griffin]

If they didn’t rely so much on concrete runoff on the exit of corners, it wouldn’t be a problem

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by antnee

I thought there had been penalties in the past for consistent track limit abuse - 3 strikes is the threshold, starting off at 5s, then 10s, 15s, 30s for each additional strike

The Mountune website reports:

'A penalty for exceeding track limits pushed [Ollie Jackson] down to 19th in race three.' and tsl shows him as crossing the line in the pit lane one lap before the end of the race - was this a drive-through penalty for exceeding track limits?

[AnnoyedMoose]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

So everyone swerved my MSV sensor question earlier! Not popular but it works!!

Problem with sensors and photos is that they just show the outcome and not the cause. On the sort of corners it's used for on the MSV circuits it works reasonably well but on a chicane like that it would end up with endless appeals from drivers saying they were forced out there by another driver etc.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

If they didn’t rely so much on concrete runoff on the exit of corners, it wouldn’t be a problem

I get your point - but Dr Palmer explains his justification for using grasscrete as:

• 'Grass and earth beyond the kerbs was previously permitted to be driven over, and was continually getting rutted and muddy, creating a safety hazard.
• Circuits have an obligation to maintain the safety of any surface that can legitimately be used.
• Circuits were having to frequently repair damaged track margins with tons of replacement soil.
• To avoid the increase in competitor costs that would result if circuits had to spend huge sums replacing earth beyond kerbs with concrete, to withstand continual driving over.
• Many competitors do not want to be pressured into driving beyond kerbs and risking damaging their cars on rutted earth and mud in order to try and set a fractionally better time
• Continual use of grass and earth beyond kerbs has been hazardous because earth, mud and stone debris have been dragged back on the asphalt and caused damage to cars.'

and so 'We have reviewed kerb layouts and extended them in various areas. We have repaired the damaged track margins and put down a great deal of new turf, and added some grasscrete in some areas too. The circuits also look much better – and we want them to stay that way.'

The solution(s) will always be a compromise.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

The Mountune website reports:

'A penalty for exceeding track limits pushed [Ollie Jackson] down to 19th in race three.' and tsl shows him as crossing the line in the pit lane one lap before the end of the race - was this a drive-through penalty for exceeding track limits?

that must be another race meeting

he only did one lap in race 3 and didnt finish

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

It might be a deterrent during qualifying, but does any driver really car if his times are deleted during a race. And they only seem to give verbal warnings during the race. Maybe if they black flagged the errant driver it may have an effect, but I don't see that happening.

Some of the cars affected on Sunday will face repair bills costing thousands, and yet that didn't seem to defer other drivers taking liberties and hitting the tyre stacks later on in other races. It all comes down to a lack of discipline and self control, not trying to the one who can get away with getting the closest to the tyres without hitting them; there's no prize for that!

Mike, a question for you if you wouldn't mind from your vantage point of viewing from the chicane:
Watching from the comfort of my living room it looked to me that at the start of one of the races (2 or 3) as they formed up on the grid Rory Butcher (who was starting from the back) appeared to 'adjust' the tyre stack very carefully (and slowly) as he got his car into position. Did you see anything that could explain it or was this just a misleading image
due to the angle of the TV camera?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Mike, a question for you if you wouldn't mind from your vantage point of viewing from the chicane:
Watching from the comfort of my living room it looked to me that at the start of one of the races (2 or 3) as they formed up on the grid Rory Butcher (who was starting from the back) appeared to 'adjust' the tyre stack very carefully (and slowly) as he got his car into position. Did you see anything that could explain it or was this just a misleading image
due to the angle of the TV camera?

Good question, Viv! Because both my son and I said almost together 'What on earth is he doing?'. He just slowed down and came to a stop by the stack. If he did touch the tyres, we certainly didn't hear him tapping them and their weight is such that it took about 6 marshals to move them - usually they called for the tractor or JCB to put it back in place. We thought that he actually had a problem as we couldn't hear his engine, and then he was just off down the straight. Really weird.

I would like to think that the Observer at the marshals' post opposite would have reported it if he did attempt to move it.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

that must be another race meeting

he only did one lap in race 3 and didnt finish

Sorry - I meant to say it was at Oulton Park 2020.

It was in response to whether there had been penalties in the past for track limits, and I was demonstrating that there has in the BTCC. (Not sure if any at Croft though).

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Good question, Viv! Because both my son and I said almost together 'What on earth is he doing?'. He just slowed down and came to a stop by the stack. If he did touch the tyres, we certainly didn't hear him tapping them and their weight is such that it took about 6 marshals to move them - usually they called for the tractor or JCB to put it back in place. We thought that he actually had a problem as we couldn't hear his engine, and then he was just off down the straight. Really weird.

I would like to think that the Observer at the marshals' post opposite would have reported it if he did attempt to move it.

OK, thanks for that Mike, nice to know that I wasn't imagining things! Maybe he was just trying to gauge his track position so that he could just get past without clouting the things and causing himself more damage? (They do seem to be looking for every little 'edge' that they can find).

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

It was in response to whether there had been penalties in the past for track limits, and I was demonstrating that there has in the BTCC. (Not sure if any at Croft though).

According to TSL, only one time penalty was given, and that was to Smiley in Race 2, a 0.7 second penalty for an unfair advantage.

But to my mind, and please someone correct me, there is not much deterrent for exceeding track limits. I believe how it works is that if a driver exceeds the limit 3 times he is given a black and white flag warning, and then if he does it again 3 times he then receives a 5 second penalty. That means that he gets 5 free goes at it before any punishment. Mind you, even if it was just 3 times, it's a gift if he gets an advantage by doing it.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

OK, thanks for that Mike, nice to know that I wasn't imagining things! Maybe he was just trying to gauge his track position so that he could just get past without clouting the things and causing himself more damage? (They do seem to be looking for every little 'edge' that they can find).

Well, the marshals thought that he was in trouble because they were getting ready to dash over to him, so it was giving them palpitations.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

But to my mind, and please someone correct me, there is not much deterrent for exceeding track limits. I believe how it works is that if a driver exceeds the limit 3 times he is given a black and white flag warning, and then if he does it again 3 times he then receives a 5 second penalty. That means that he gets 5 free goes at it before any punishment. Mind you, even if it was just 3 times, it's a gift if he gets an advantage by doing it.

It's slightly worse than that, but not much.

1st breach – no penalty
2nd breach - warning flag
3rd breach – 5 second penalty added to race time
4th breach – 10 second penalty added to race time
5th breach – drive through penalty (12.26.(h))
6th breach – black flag

[AnnoyedMoose]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

According to TSL, only one time penalty was given, and that was to Smiley in Race 2, a 0.7 second penalty for an unfair advantage.

But to my mind, and please someone correct me, there is not much deterrent for exceeding track limits. I believe how it works is that if a driver exceeds the limit 3 times he is given a black and white flag warning, and then if he does it again 3 times he then receives a 5 second penalty. That means that he gets 5 free goes at it before any punishment. Mind you, even if it was just 3 times, it's a gift if he gets an advantage by doing it.

I assume they race under MSUK rules in which case it's a warning flag on the 2nd offence, 5 second penalty for the third, 10 sec for the 4th, drive through for the 5th and dq for the 6th.