How to fix F1?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

I wish the author could expand on this.

The article seems to be very speculative, but I guess that is all they can do at this point.

As to Liberty wanting to get out. I guess only they know. As for being "unloaded", that sounds like depressed sale. That doesn't seem right either. Everything is for sale at the right price. It would be interesting to know if Liberty is shopping F1 around or just listening to unsolicited offers.

I would tend to think that now is the worst time for Liberty to sell. If I were a buyer and trying to drive down the price, I would call out that Liberty/F1/FIA have just made significant changes to the sport in both the new 2022 technical and financial regulations. Depending upon who you ask those are great changes, or not. Also they are in the middle of negotiations on the new power unit spec which may bring more manufactures in (VAG, etc.) or push them away. My point being. Why as a buyer should I talk all of the risk of things going south?

I think the right time to sell is AFTER the start of 2022 season with that (hopefully) showing that the new regulations has not wrecked things and maybe also provides some new excitement via fans. Plus, maybe they will have resolved the power unit regulations by then as well (for better or worse no longer a question mark). I think that if Liberty has any faith in what they have done, they would wait to sell. Unless someone just makes them an offer they can't refuse. If perchance Liberty is not actively seeking a buyer right now, it could just be that a Saudi group might just be eager buyers.

Richard

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

I wish the author could expand on this.

The article does explain some of the reasons - Covid being just one. But what it doesn't highlight is that Mr E ran FOM on a shoestring. Although his business empire was based at Biggin Hill aerodrome, FOM was in reality run from his flat in Central London, and he only had one other member of staff on FOM's payroll. In contrast, Liberty brought on a load of executives, such as Ross Brawn, and took on a huge suite of offices, and filled it with administrators, in Mayfair which is possibly where the most expensive office real estate in the UK is located.

So, outgoings for Mr E were almost negligible and he was therefore able to reap huge financial benefits whilst Liberty have saddled themselves with very considerable overheads.

[Born Racer]

Please keep Monza Ham and Ver discussion to the Italian GP thread and possibly the stewarding and driving standards thread if it's part of the wider discussion.

[NaBUru38]

"Struggling to make it financially viable"? Oh come on!

Did Liberty really thought that they could ask twice the money for F1 rights? I mean, they had to give away US rights to ESPN for free...

F1 teams spend every extra penny on hiring more and more engineers to get the unfair advantage, and they always ask for more. Teams could agree to have IndyCar-like budgets if they wished, but they don't.

[bathurst77]

seems like liberty only bought it last year and they already looking for the exits

[P38 in workshop]

They've been involved for a bit longer than that,but they seem to have had the fairly common American perception that what America likes,the rest of the world will like.Such things as the Superbowl every other weekend....


In spite of hiring some long term Formula 1 people like Ross Brawn and Stefano Domenicali they have battled to grow the business significantly and the move to pay to view hasn't helped to attract fresh eyeballs.


One thing I have been disappointed about recently is the eagerness to abandon the MGU-H from the next generation of power units.I understand that they have cost a lot to develop,but they have contributed to the highest efficiency IC engine ever.Surely a change to a spec part would have enabled them to retain that title and appear to be pursuing excellence?

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

They've been involved for a bit longer than that,but they seem to have had the fairly common American perception that what America likes,the rest of the world will like.Such things as the Superbowl every other weekend....

i think this in part for sure but also Liberty, to my understanding, is a platform provider and dont have a lot of experience in creating content and specifically not anything other than pre written scripted content.

here is a live sport that is prone to long cycles of domination by one team and is something that most (non-die hard fans) think is boring.

to their credit they have moved towards leveling the (financial) playing field and are looking to introduce new rules aimed at creating a type of parity which will allow any given to team to win on any given Sunday (a very American concept) and if it works great.

but at the end of the day it still wont offer Liberty control over the ending, it wont generate the narratives that popular reality dramas do, and it will never be as exciting as the fictionalized version of F1 we see in Netflix' Drive to Survive.

so i would suspect that for all the time and energy Liberty put into F1, they could just as easily go out and produce a half dozen other shows with a lot less in inputs and still realize a far larger profit then they do with F1.

just speculating of course.

[Taxi645]

The real effects of the changes done will start to come into effect from next year onwards. So give them some time and credit.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by S griffin

If anything, the comparison between the Champ Cars and F1 at Montreal shows what a ridiculous amount of performance F1 cars had at that time. Braking distances too short, too much acceleration due to TC. That period wasn’t exactly a golden era.

Are you complaining about racing cars being too fast!?

While the racing wasn't always thrilling (though 2003 & 2005 were not too bad), that period is certainly seen as a golden era in terms of the cars themselves by most F1 fans. Recall the reactions to Alonso's demonstration of the 2005 Renault RS25: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG51Phzge1I

The 2006 naturally aspirated V8s with unlimited rpm (20,000+) were still very reasonable, but later on -- in 2009, 2010, 2011 etc -- fans always knew that the V8s capped to 18,000rpm were OK but neutered from their full potential. Later still when the turbo hybrid first came out, Alan Jones said very directly "to me, that sounds terrible".

Casper would also be pleased that the aerodynamics on the F1 cars of the 2003 or 2005 era were relatively rudimentary compared to modern standards. Though, certainly, computing power and the sophistication of the bodywork had increased dramatically by 2008 when we had such bewinged eyesores as the 2008 BMW.

Typical 2003 F1 car bodywork:
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/f1...manu-02_06.jpg

Typical 2008 F1 car:
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/f1...uber_F1.08.jpg

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

Idk how you came to this opinion?

When I switched over the telly from F1 to CART. The latter used to be broadcast late(r) at night, after F1. Switching directly from one to the other, the much slower cornering of CART was very noticeable, take the Mexico City circuit for instance. I think the F1 race on the same weekend was Suzuka, and the Champcars cornered so slow compared to F1 that the difference was very stark.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Are you complaining about racing cars being too fast!?

While the racing wasn't always thrilling (though 2003 & 2005 were not too bad), that period is certainly seen as a golden era in terms of the cars themselves by most F1 fans. Recall the reactions to Alonso's demonstration of the 2005 Renault RS25: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG51Phzge1I

The 2006 naturally aspirated V8s with unlimited rpm (20,000+) were still very reasonable, but later on -- in 2009, 2010, 2011 etc -- fans always knew that the V8s capped to 18,000rpm were OK but neutered from their full potential. Later still when the turbo hybrid first came out, Alan Jones said very directly "to me, that sounds terrible".

Casper would also be pleased that the aerodynamics on the F1 cars of the 2003 or 2005 era were relatively rudimentary compared to modern standards. Though, certainly, computing power and the sophistication of the bodywork had increased dramatically by 2008 when we had such bewinged eyesores as the 2008 BMW.

Typical 2003 F1 car bodywork:
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/f1...manu-02_06.jpg

Typical 2008 F1 car:
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/f1...uber_F1.08.jpg



When I switched over the telly from F1 to CART. The latter used to be broadcast late(r) at night, after F1. Switching directly from one to the other, the much slower cornering of CART was very noticeable, take the Mexico City circuit for instance. I think the F1 race on the same weekend was Suzuka, and the Champcars cornered so slow compared to F1 that the difference was very stark.

Those Lolas they were racing were heavier than F1 cars, 770 kg/1700 lb compared to 600 kg/1323 lb. Also in 2003 Champ Car imposed a rev limit of 12,000 rpm, down from the 14,000 rpm of 2002.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Are you complaining about F1 racing cars being too fast!?

Yep!

[Teretonga]

Id be happy if they went right back to the type of aero we saw in the mid to late 80's. single plane wings and very limited body inspired aero (if any). I'm thinking about the MP4-Honda's, Ferrari 641. smaller, lighter cars. yes slower on corners but so what.
If were talking about the WDC we could get all the teams to race a car completely devoid of aero (like a FF) with 8'' and 10' wide wheels and 300hp for qualifying on Friday and a qualifying race (200km with refueling and tyre stops) and WDC points on Saturday. (one design chassis with common gearbox and engine and no aero, a BIG expense reduction)
Then the finishing order on Saturdays WDC race would determine the grid for the high tech WCC wunder-cars on Sunday....

Or should we ban tech and push it into an expanded WEC....

[S griffin]

Quite frankly if some think F1 is only about speed, then maybe they should only watch qualifying. For me the spectacle is more important. Seeing cars on the edge and being able to race each other is what I’d like to see

[seanyb505]

Was reading the Rich energy thread going off topic and I had a stupid thought that pertains to this thread.

What if the lowest driver with no points in the championship that year loses their seat for next year? Basically you made no notable indentation on the rest of the field, please excuse yourself from the table.

Completely unfeasible I know, as it would likely push out pay drivers. But it could shake up the dull end of the field with enough regularity that we'd see new talent come in when current talent doesn't stack up well against the other 19 drivers.

It would also give drive to survive more stuff to talk about.

[bathurst77]

after the racing lately the question we need to ask is if f1 needs any fixing

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

after the racing lately the question we need to ask is if f1 needs any fixing

Are the new regs coming in at the wrong time?

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by seanyb505

Was reading the Rich energy thread going off topic and I had a stupid thought that pertains to this thread.

What if the lowest driver with no points in the championship that year loses their seat for next year? Basically you made no notable indentation on the rest of the field, please excuse yourself from the table.

Completely unfeasible I know, as it would likely push out pay drivers. But it could shake up the dull end of the field with enough regularity that we'd see new talent come in when current talent doesn't stack up well against the other 19 drivers.

It would also give drive to survive more stuff to talk about.

Fernando Alonso.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Are the new regs coming in at the wrong time?

The last few races do make you wonder, don't they?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

The last few races do make you wonder, don't they?

And it makes you wonder whether Bernie's suggestion of tracks with sprinklers operated by race control was such a daft idea after all?

[Aysedasi]

Hmmm, no, that's still daft....... They should have aircraft up to seed the clouds.....

[seanyb505]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

Fernando Alonso.

Fernando is sitting 10th with 58 pts. Not sure the context of your post.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by seanyb505

Fernando is sitting 10th with 58 pts. Not sure the context of your post.

I think - 2001 season.

The suggestion was that the lowest driver in the table is not allowed to return the following year. Alonso was the lowest (full-season) driver in 2001 and so would have been excluded in 2002.
As it was, that is effectively what happened (test driver in 2002), and he returned in 2003 - got three podiums including a win and the rest, as they say, is history.

So - the future suggests that Mazpein will be a test driver in 2022 for Alpine, and in 2024 win his first WDC driving for them.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Hmmm, no, that's still daft....... They should have aircraft up to seed the clouds.....

That’s what happened before the Dubai 24 Hours in 2020. The result was the most epic, biblical rainstorm I have ever witnessed. Parts of the track plus the pitlane were still under feet of water the next morning. The race was abandoned after 7 hours. There were cars floating down some Dubai streets. Had I not hired a big 4x4 to sleep in, I’d not have made it back to the airport.

Still, at least I can say I saw a race in the desert rained off

[S griffin]

I still think the 2022 rules are necessary. Great as the Russian GP was, I still want cars that can allow drivers to overtake with their own skill rather than rely on DRS, although it seems they are keeping DRS to begin with

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

And it makes you wonder whether Bernie's suggestion of tracks with sprinklers operated by race control was such a daft idea after all?

I have the same thought each time we have a crazy rain race. Not that I think it's a generally good idea. But it does pop into my head.

Originally Posted by S griffin

I still think the 2022 rules are necessary. Great as the Russian GP was, I still want cars that can allow drivers to overtake with their own skill rather than rely on DRS, although it seems they are keeping DRS to begin with

Agree in general. I will say maybe some of what we are seeing is a result of recent change (of which 2022 changes are part of).

I will note that how much DRS will continue to be a factor in 2022+ is undecided and I think they are going to be watching to see if they think they can remove it, or need to keep it.

Richard