[Rules] 2026 Power Units

[S griffin]

It's hard to compare F1 with NASCAR. Things are very different. And things aren't cheap in NASCAR either. Any motorsport high up will be, even with costs under control. Also there's less development in NASCAR in F1

Seriously F1 needs to have a very good think on where it goes next with regards to engines. I don't mind the current power units, but have they really made it better? It my view they've made things more complicated, when it should have been made simpler like other motorsports

But each to their own. I think other motorsports have done well to keep technology simple. We'll see what F1 does next.

It's an interesting debate. I wouldn't mind seeing a return of V8s, even if I'm not fussed either way. I still think motorsport should keep engines sounding good. We need the engine note to remain, it helps add to the spectacle. But we need less complicated engines in F1 for sure. Even the previous turbos were less complicated and they certainly added to the spectacle. I feel the current breed of engines may have had their day

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Seriously F1 needs to have a very good think on where it goes next with regards to engines. I don't mind the current power units, but have they really made it better? It my view they've made things more complicated, when it should have been made simpler like other motorsports

Good post. I agree with the above. I also agree with the posts Akrapovic made earlier.

While I seem to be coming down hard on simple engines, I broadly agree with the concept. I frankly think it would be awesome to see a larger displacement NA V12 and no hybrid. I just don't think it will ever happen. What I think is closer to reality is something like the 2.4L NA V8 at 18-19K RPM or the earlier 3.0L V10 spec as the ICE with a hybrid solution bolted on. Some controls would be required to keep it from being an ongoing ICE combustion efficiency war. I think those types of NA engines are very well understood at this point and could be made cheaply and simply. The hybrid solution could also be an area in which specs are tight to keep development costs within control.

I will try to shut up for now as I have been posting too much on this topic.

Richard

[chillibowl]

no doubt there were issues about what came before but if one is looking forward to 2030 in relation to the environmental and sustainably targets being set by almost every country F1 races in competes in, then this hybrid era may ultimately be seen as a part of the necessary process for F1 to maintain its viability post those accords coming into effect.

we saw this with tobacco...if F1 doesnt play ball/adhere to social norms they risk being banned from TV broadcasts, the FIA runs the risk of not being able to sanction races in countries who have not adopted these Paris accords, other sponsors will look for more socially acceptable platforms, and govt's (like Canada and i suspect many others particularly those with city race locations) will be unwilling and possibly unable to legally continue to subsidize races events that run older dirtier louder spec cheap engines.

so to save a few million on engines one would risk losing out on hundreds of millions of other revenue?

and honestly, what teams are complaining about engine price? the poorest of the teams (and it seems ridiculous to call billionaires poor) want more parts from the their manu partners not less. and if they are talking about less money for engines, then it is in order for them to free up more money to buy other bespoke parts from those same suppliers.

actually think one could make the argument that teams like Force India, Sauber, Haas, even Williams are more valuable and thus more financially secure because they hold these 'expensive' engine supply contracts which allow them to participate in F1 and thus take a share in an ever increasing prize fund.

you replace the current engine deals with a cheap 20-100k alternative and first thing that happens is you erase 30-50million multiplied by the length of the supply contract worth of assets from each one of these teams' books.

basically overnight you would have just erased potentially a few hundred million worth of equity off of each one of these teams financials while inferring that this would be a good business move.

but hey, why not just buy everything from Wal-Mart then? better yet why not downsize completely, outsource everything, and just buy everything from the cheapest supplier?

after several decades of seeing this logic play out and seeing every manufacturing center in my community get gutted, i personally dont think reducing our reliance on local manufacturing (in this analogy the manus who also compete in the sport are the local manufactures) is a good thing or that it will increase customer satisfaction. imo it will have the opposite effect.

i love that F1 produces for itself, that its stakeholders invest in the very communities where the teams themselves are located in. that they hire and nurture talented people and provide them with budgets to build something unique.

are their benefits to bespoke engineering...absolutely yes! does it cost money...absolutely yes!

do the benefits outweigh the costs...absolutely yes! can the teams afford it...imo absolutely yes! this is literally what they want to spend their money on!

what is the last team that couldn't afford an engine part or that got DQ/refused entry for not having enough parts to run?

imo a used retro engine formula makes very little sense to me from an environmental point of view, a manufacturing point of view, a business/economic view, and a customer satisfaction/entertainment point of view.

one caveat though...i do think more emphasis should be placed on the engines drivability characteristics. i thought Taxi645 made a great point on that as i do think there is a sporting argument to make for simpler better understood engines. this should be talked about more.

anyways, rant over! im guess no one will agree with me because manus bad and the past good!

[Akrapovic]

lol. I proposed a solution which is actually possible (but unlikely) and was shot down with "won't happen". Only for the shooter to propose basically using LMP2 engines in F1 cars. I do love the internet.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

lol. I proposed a solution which is actually possible (but unlikely) and was shot down with "won't happen". Only for the shooter to propose basically using LMP2 engines in F1 cars. I do love the internet.

Hey, I read the post above and had to scan through the thread to see which posts match your comments. I can't find any. I think I was the only one who mentioned LMP2 engines which is what triggered me to dig and look.

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

So, I am not saying to use the Gibson (or similar) "as is" for F1. But I am saying that there is a middle ground between "stock block based engines" and "current F1 excesses" that are true race engines AND affordable.

I did mention LMP2 engines (such as the Gibson LMP2 spec ICE), but also specifically said they would NOT be in F1 cars, but was trying to point out the basic level of technology used in modern bespoke engines and how they can be affordable.

As to the "won't happen" and "shot down". Are you referring to this..

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

While I seem to be coming down hard on simple engines, I broadly agree with the concept. I frankly think it would be awesome to see a larger displacement NA V12 and no hybrid. I just don't think it will ever happen.

If so. I call out that I think this would be a great solution. But I just say I don't think it will happen. Not that it was "shot down" or a "bad idea".

Either you very much misunderstood my posts (including the fact I pretty much agree with most all you said) or... you are referring to comments by someone else and I can't figure out who.

Richard

[Akrapovic]

Not you

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Not you

Haha. OK.

Richard

[Tourer]

Mr Horner would prefer to see high revving ICE engines running on biofuel from 2025. Interesting that Mr Wolff says that he personally agrees but that the youth of today wouldn't - I'd suggest that if the youth he refers to got a chance to experience the visceral symphony of a full field of high-revving ICE F1 cars (which they haven't experienced) then the view would change pretty damn fast.

I'm not convinced that the current love affair with electric and nothing but from our lawmakers is going to last, nor that related tech makes sense for motorsport. The current (& possibly future) F1 cars may be hybrid but they are also big, heavy behemoths and lower in efficiency and total energy consumption / emissions due to the massive weight and size.

Small, nimble, light cars would be better both on the race track and out on the roads - if biofuel or hydrogen ICE power can be good for the planet, and both race and road cars are lighter, needing less energy to produce, generating less emissions and reducing the carbon footprint of residue product then that feels much more sustainable longer-term to me than the whole electric, battery disposal nightmare that will only get bigger and harder as there are more to deal with.

Really good YouTube segment here on the considerable downsides of battery powered machinery & trucks. Whilst the issues mentioned are less for cars, I can see some of these vast pronouncements being made by politicians currently being watered down or partially reversed in the years to come as the myriad of unintended consequences become clear to even the dullards who take up political office.

I mean, how often have vast and sweeping changes been made by politicians and then not been changed significantly, watered down or reversed? I'd suggest not that often and I think that it's a great folly for motorsport and F1 in particular to go too far down the road of following the politicians' "lead".

Rather, F1 should be showing the way and developing something special (whilst being more entertaining and suitable for racing) that provides a blueprint for others to follow, including in the road vehicle world.

[Mike Harte]

Tourer, referring to your post above, F1 have to be seen to be taking action and seriously so, in order to be acceptable to probably a small minority in the world who hold extremist views on how the see the world behaving. Unfortunately, they have no regard for the huge majority of society that just want to be left in peace to lead their own lives as they want to do; legally, it obviously goes without saying.

As an example, an animal rights group blockaded McDonald's meat processing plant in the UK demanding that the company only served a plant based menu by 2025, and they wouldn't move until they received written confirmation of the change. I don't know if they have been moved yet, but for the last two days the company have been unable to get vehicles in or out of the works, meaning that their restaurants are running out of supplies.

This is how the world is now, regretfully.

[Adam43]

[chillibowl]

In a way going for louder more entertaining engines that are also environmentally forward/sustainable biofuels seems like the more expensive path forward.

Moreso for a team that is just taking over an engine program for the first time.

I do wonder what Mr. Horner is playing at but hearing Toto answer questions about this (and responding by suggesting how old and out of touch they both are) makes me think this is just the next level to their passive aggressive war of words with each other?

This is how old men fight with handbags right?

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Tourer, referring to your post above, F1 have to be seen to be taking action and seriously so, in order to be acceptable to probably a small minority in the world who hold extremist views on how the see the world behaving. Unfortunately, they have no regard for the huge majority of society that just want to be left in peace to lead their own lives as they want to do; legally, it obviously goes without saying.

As an example, an animal rights group blockaded McDonald's meat processing plant in the UK demanding that the company only served a plant based menu by 2025, and they wouldn't move until they received written confirmation of the change. I don't know if they have been moved yet, but for the last two days the company have been unable to get vehicles in or out of the works, meaning that their restaurants are running out of supplies.

This is how the world is now, regretfully.

Yeah, get all that Mike - the same type of flogger can be found in most countries. Personally I think that it's somewhat weak to simply roll over for them but then I don't have money invested in a team or a brand.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Mr Horner would prefer to see high revving ICE engines running on biofuel from 2025. Interesting that Mr Wolff says that he personally agrees but that the youth of today wouldn't - I'd suggest that if the youth he refers to got a chance to experience the visceral symphony of a full field of high-revving ICE F1 cars (which they haven't experienced) then the view would change pretty damn fast.

I'm not convinced that the current love affair with electric and nothing but from our lawmakers is going to last, nor that related tech makes sense for motorsport. The current (& possibly future) F1 cars may be hybrid but they are also big, heavy behemoths and lower in efficiency and total energy consumption / emissions due to the massive weight and size.

Small, nimble, light cars would be better both on the race track and out on the roads - if biofuel or hydrogen ICE power can be good for the planet, and both race and road cars are lighter, needing less energy to produce, generating less emissions and reducing the carbon footprint of residue product then that feels much more sustainable longer-term to me than the whole electric, battery disposal nightmare that will only get bigger and harder as there are more to deal with.

Really good YouTube segment here on the considerable downsides of battery powered machinery & trucks. Whilst the issues mentioned are less for cars, I can see some of these vast pronouncements being made by politicians currently being watered down or partially reversed in the years to come as the myriad of unintended consequences become clear to even the dullards who take up political office.

I mean, how often have vast and sweeping changes been made by politicians and then not been changed significantly, watered down or reversed? I'd suggest not that often and I think that it's a great folly for motorsport and F1 in particular to go too far down the road of following the politicians' "lead".

Rather, F1 should be showing the way and developing something special (whilst being more entertaining and suitable for racing) that provides a blueprint for others to follow, including in the road vehicle world.

It will be an interesting few years ahead but I suspect the avalanche to BEV's is unstoppable at this point and anyone denying it has a finger in the dyke so to speak. China is leading the charge with huge change having already taken place and bigger change already programmed. Every manufacturer world wide and with no exception I know of is investing into the BEV/Hybrid program and will want their ROI from that investment. Why would Hydrogen/ICE be a good idea? hydrogen's supply chain is incredibly complex, energy hungry and the ICE is a disaster when it comes to efficiency returns.

The biggest problem I see coming is who supplies the ICE vehicles for the remote areas of the world where BEV is not practical in the truest sense of the word. What it is coming down to is Europe looking after Europe and damn the rest of the world. Sooner or later the fact that BEV's are not practical in remote areas is going to strike someone between the eyes and let's see what happens then.

It has been said before, F1 and motorsport in general is between a rock and a hard place and any plans they make in 2026 is unlikely to survive the end of this decade for any number of reasons. In fact the longer they put it off the harder the decision will become due to the short period before change is forced on the series and the wider sport. God know what is going to happen in motor sport generally, it is niche now and likely to become much smaller. Motor sport starts at club level and cut the roots off a plant and it shrivels up and dies. Even NASCAR that bastion of the V8 and stuff the rest of the world because we don't want fuel injection has finally worked out that change is on the way and nothing will stop it.

[Taxi645]

Quite a balanced view from Brown I think:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/n...laren/6637772/


I'll repeat, by 2026 no car manufacturer will have any interest in the turbo hybrid tech, but F1 would be stuck with it.

[chillibowl]

No doubt F1 will find sponsors, but without the right platform the question becomes what kind of sponsors will they attract going forward and/or will those sponsors' involvment preculde other potentially more lucrative companies from entering?

I would add to that though, the increasing number of investors/hedge funds in F1 probably want a platform that better suits their ability to attract new funds and many of these large funds (dealing with pension funds or large endowments) are increasingly being given guidlines on what types of 'ethical' investments they can make.

the platform has to relevant.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

Quite a balanced view from Brown I think:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/n...laren/6637772/


I'll repeat, by 2026 no car manufacturer will have any interest in the turbo hybrid tech, but F1 would be stuck with it.

That was my point, if they continue as they will with that style of PU change will be forced by outside factors sooner rather than later so it has to be a cheaper option at the moment to allow for the changes that will have to occur. When the road car fleet is going electric there is no way that ICE powered motorsport will be tolerated either socially or by the governing bodies who legislate this stuff. Another problem will be the American mind set that sys we should be allowed to do what we want and the European mind set that says stand by while we write the legislation to force what we want. The big surprise to me is that two stroke powered karts are still allowed.

[Taxi645]

From this article: https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/a...ter-than-motoe

Last year Formula 1 published a study into its own emissions, coming up with these numbers: logistics create 45%, personnel travel 28%, F1 factories and facilities 19%, event operations 7% and the actual racing 0.7%. These numbers don’t include fans travelling to races, which might dwarf everything else.

So the actual racing is 0.7%.....


This shows exactly how ridiculous it would be to continue the current engine formula when all new road cars have gone cobalt free battery and synthetic fuelled atmospheric engines would be much more road/world relevant.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

This shows exactly how ridiculous it would be to continue the current engine formula when all new road cars have gone cobalt free battery and synthetic fuelled atmospheric engines would be much more road/world relevant.

This could make MUCH more impact on both sales and overall environmental impact but seems to be pushed to the end of the line behind subsidizing China and African countries with forced labor mining.

[GTRMagic]

Keep replaying the sound of those awesome Ferrari V12's.... maybe the Formula 1 mob could equip the cars with Bose/Rockford Fosgate/Harman Kardon/JBL/Sony etc etc speaker systems and play a soundtrack of the Faz at full noise, powered by battery pack #2834234 onboard... to give the crowd something to salivate over...

[wnut]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Keep replaying the sound of those awesome Ferrari V12's.... maybe the Formula 1 mob could equip the cars with Bose/Rockford Fosgate/Harman Kardon/JBL/Sony etc etc speaker systems and play a soundtrack of the Faz at full noise, powered by battery pack #2834234 onboard... to give the crowd something to salivate over...

Formula E needs all the help it can get!

[crmalcolm]

For those who wonder if PU makers link their F1 product to road relevance - https://www.facebook.com/13360305243...0700262212439/

[Taxi645]

If ever a combination of two news stories in one week perfectly illustrated why the current engine regulations are a dead end, these two must be it:

https://www.motor1.com/news/532216/m...v-development/

Mercedes killing hybrid development in favour of EV's, remember the road relevancy argument from them?


https://www.givemesport.com/1749698-...potential-move

A boss from an engine manufacturer team trying to dictate if a driver from another team can go to yet another team.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

Mercedes killing hybrid development in favour of EV's, remember the road relevancy argument from them?

A battery pack (used at ~100% efficiency) with the same energy of the current 110kg of fuel, times 50% efficiency, would weigh over 2 tonnes.

Battery energy density is a problem, and remains the problem that makes electric Formula One Grand Prixs a difficult engineering proposition.

You could probably manage 1-3 laps at 1000hp without issue, but completing the full 305km (with 1000hp/max 900kg) is really a big problem.

[wnut]

power unit changes delayed to 2026.

Removal of MGU-H will reduce the cost from $2M to $1M ! Wow!

https://www.pitpass.com/70770/MGU-H-...yed-until-2026

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

A battery pack (used at ~100% efficiency) with the same energy of the current 110kg of fuel, times 50% efficiency, would weigh over 2 tonnes.

Battery energy density is a problem, and remains the problem that makes electric Formula One Grand Prixs a difficult engineering proposition.

You could probably manage 1-3 laps at 1000hp without issue, but completing the full 305km (with 1000hp/max 900kg) is really a big problem.

Completely agree. My points was that if you loose the road relevance argument completely, then there is nologic to stick to a PU that is that expensive, heavy, and gives PU nanufacturers so much power over other teams.

Luckaly they have now seen this as well, as seen by the dropping of the MGU-H as per wnut's link.

I would still like to see the option of atmospheric V10's, but at least they came to their senses.