[BTCC] BTCC 2018 - Rounds 13, 14, 15 - Croft

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Josh Cook was surely a brake failure. Terrifying off.

At 130mph... could have been very very nasty.

[BillWiskins]

Congrats to Mr Lloyd. Is that 11 winners now?

Think everyone needs to calm down about BMR and Subaru. It's not as if all three of them are suddenly driving away from the field - quite the opposite looking at race three onboards from Sutton's POV. Tiny boost adjustment (which was apparently to rectify a mistake rather than a response to Subaru's recent lack of pace) and everyone's calling conspiracy?

Could it not be that a previously front-running (and championship winning) team who have had a known engine issue might have solved that problem, putting them back on pace (edit to add: obviously RWD circuit etc)? I'd have thought fans would be pleased to see another couple of cars capable of mixing it with the front of the field.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by BillWiskins

Congrats to Mr Lloyd. Is that 11 winners now?

Think everyone needs to calm down about BMR and Subaru. It's not as if all three of them are suddenly driving away from the field - quite the opposite looking at race three onboards from Sutton's POV. Tiny boost adjustment (which was apparently to rectify a mistake rather than a response to Subaru's recent lack of pace) and everyone's calling conspiracy?

I don't think there's a conspiracy, but Race 2, the 2 heaviest cars drove away from the field. That's not right.

BMRs problem is it seems impossible to balance. So it either dominates or gets scraps for points. If it gets scraps then you have constant complaining, drama and nonsense about how awful the car is. So it gets a rebalance and suddenly it dominates to the point where nobody can touch it even with full weight.

The other competitors have the right to feel a little miffed. We've also got TD Hondas and Matt Neal who aren't quite where they should be, and the rebalance ends up with Subaru leapfrogging them in performance. If you were sitting around 10-15th in the championship, would you not feel a bit screwed over if a team you've been beating gets a rebalance and ends up miles ahead of literally, the entire grid?

Not a conspiracy. Not on purpose. But it is very very unbalanced and very silly. Something needs done to find a happy medium with the BMR cars.

Edit: Not BMW, BMR!

[porsche962fan]

^ hence best of the Subarus dissappear from the grid

[Evantra]

Last BMR comment from me - maybe being a bit hypocritical, but what annoys me most about the Subarus is that nearly all the hate and negativity towards the BTCC stems from them. Whether or not they had an advantage it really ruins the weekend when all you read is negative comments.

--

On a more positive note, enjoyable last race and good to see a more mixed podium. A bit of unnecessary contact creeping back into the mix (waiting for all the hate the stewards decisions are going to get...) but clean in the lead battles.

Once again the driver who impressed me most was Ingram - FWD, long wheelbase, ballast and yet he still got 2 podiums, and continues to come across so likeable on interviews.

Absolute disaters for Morgan (Croft again!) and Goff. Austin and Jelley's strong qualifying came to naught too.

Very pleased to see Chilton on the podium again - still can't believe Tordoff's best result has only been 4th... 6 times!


Looking back on last year though, I think the best thing we can take from the weekend is that there were no major incidents!

[Akrapovic]

I agree with the Ingram comments. Not only does his skill really shine through in this situation, he drives so cleanly and comes across as such a nice guy and class act. Really like Tom.

[mark_l]

The BMR's might get some points at Snetterton, which is usually a rear wheel drive circuit.

Croft has just flattered BMR but we will have to wait and see who appears at Snetterton.

[coppice]

Crikey some folk get terribly excited about the BTCC panto don't they? God knows why , it isn't a spec formula per se but it isn't very far away from being one and if the rules to keep the show attracting the BTCC public are tweaked a bit, as is allowed , who cares ?



Much better F4 racing today, apart from stupid deployment of safety car - after the incident had been cleared FFS . Some very neat moves into Tower .



The uninhabited gazebos were worse than ever , if not as annoying as being kippered by BBQs - on a spectator bank , next to a live race track...



Thank God they only come once a year

[Mike Harte]

I do think a lot of people are getting their knickers in a twist about the Subarus, because they are ignoring the data and the facts.


They were permitted a very small increase in turbo boost, which is equivalent to the power of the average garden mower. That, in itself, is never going to move the cars from the back of the grid to the front.


And even the visual aspect is being ignored. It was blatantly obvious that other cars where pulling away from them on the straights, and this is backed up by the speed traps at Croft. At the 1st, Sutton's car was 30/32, at the 2nd he was 15/32 and I think he was plum last at the 3rd trap.


No matter how many times it is repeated, peeps seem to overlook at the other factors of today. Firstly, Croft is a track that favours rear wheel cars, and has done so for some time. Secondly, BMR managed to find some fixes for the intercooler interface which helped, and lastly, they were running a new front splitter which Sutton and Plato found to be an improvement.


Lastly, if the boost was so good that it was the only thing that brought about today's success, why was Josh Price (who not exactly a slouch) wallowing around at the back of the field throughout the weekend. If the conspiracy theorists' theory had any basis in truth, then the three cars would have all been up the sharp end, but they weren't. Or was that deliberate and I've fallen for their trap.

[mattsmith]

In race 3 when they showed Sutton's on-board when he was following Matt Neal the Subaru was obviously losing massively to the Honda on the straight but Matt Neal got nowhere near any apex for several laps.

Sutton was 27th,25th and 32nd in the speed traps. Neal was 7th,12th and 18th. His top speed was 4mph faster than Sutton.

Honda have decent grunt but their car just isn't that good. BTCC performance balancing isn't supposed to equalize that.

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by mattsmith

Honda have decent grunt but their car just isn't that good. BTCC performance balancing isn't supposed to equalize that.

Tim and Owy mentioned this at the end and that a boost recalculation might be in order

but somehow Matt Neal did manage to sneak 3rd in the standings

Turks 162
Tingram 143
Neal 127
Jordan 119
Chilton 118
Morgan 115
Sutton 112
Goff 112
Cook 109

[Alfisti]

Hmmm... as has been said by many something is odd with those Subarus. They were definitely delivering the power very well; Platos R2 flight to pass all those cars provides the evidence - running around at the front isn't that hard, but passing a dozen odd cars is.

I simply do not buy into a tiny bit of boost and a reworked intercooler delivering that much of a difference in performance.

Presumably Platos engine was over heating in R3, hence falling back?

Nice to see Norlin and Dan Lloyd lose their virginity. Tingram impressed me too, a good clean hard working driver: would like to see him win the championship.

[Racer65]

It's not a different in engine performance though is it? That's obvious from looking at the races and the speed traps.

What was obvious to me was that the Subaru, especially in the hands of Sutton, could basically take any line it wanted through the mid and slow speed corners and brake far later than anyone else while doing it.

In race 2 Plato had two cars with him that started the race from plumb last. No-one is saying that is odd. They passed just as many cars.

[Sodemo]

Is it possible that they have adjusted the torque curve so that they get good power at a lower band and can then jump out of corners ok, but then suffer a bit at the top end? It seemed like they could exit corners well, but then got suckered down the longer straights...?

[crmalcolm]

I think the Subaru situation is far more simple than people seem to think, and there is no conspiracy here at all.

I think their main issue (if you can call it that) is a very narrow window of chassis performance.
On paper, RWD and Boxer engine should be the ideal platform for NGTC success, but it is very difficult to set up correctly.
With Turkington in the car, his feedback to Faux allowed them to find the sweet spot effectively.
Once Turkington left, and the CoG was adjusted, it took a while to find this sweet spot again, but with Faux they were still able to get results.

For 2018, the weight has been adjusted again. The current drivers and engineers are finding it difficult to get the car set up correctly. This is not helped when your more experienced driver admits he isn't pushing if the car is not right. At Croft, they seem to have found a set up that works, which in a RWD car means they were able to dominate.

[Craner Curves]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

With Turkington in the car, his feedback to Faux allowed them to find the sweet spot effectively.
Once Turkington left, and the CoG was adjusted, it took a while to find this sweet spot again, but with Faux they were still able to get results.

Turkingtons feedback was to Kevin Berry, possibly the best RWD engineer at the present time.

[HopAlong]

Having watched from track side I can say the Subarus never really pulled away, and the car looked better out of the hairpin than the BMW and pretty good on the brakes.


Why when Honda run away, or Ingram on full ballast, its always well done, aren't they the best ever. I also find it funny how TD are allowed to struggle but BMR can't come last and they aren't allowed to win.


Shouldn't we enjoy having a competitive field of cars, or should we yearn for the days when you could only win in a Sierra or Skyline.

[Racer65]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

The current drivers and engineers are finding it difficult to get the car set up correctly. This is not helped when your more experienced driver admits he isn't pushing if the car is not right.

Big difference between not pushing to get 27th place over 30th and not providing the correct feedback.

Any driver at this level, especially two with three championships between them, should be able to provide the correct feedback for any problems with the car.

Whether those problems can be addressed is another matter. Personally I just see it as an example of how close the BTCC is. A favourable circuit and the ability to make more use of the engine due to induction changes can turn things right around.

They weren't the only ones making big moves either way.

[coppice]

That should double the number of Levorgs sold - to double figures - or is that too optimistic ?



Anyway - one thing I did notice at two points trackside was that Plato was either differently geared or hitting a higher speed than Sutton as every lap he was just touching the rev limiter.

[Sodemo]

The BMWs didn’t seem that great out of the hairpins and their straight line speed seemed down too, in fact looking at the speed trap speeds, the BMWs are among the slowest in a straight line. I too noticed that the Subaru’s seemed far better out of the hairpin.

[VIVA GT]

The Subaru's were better out of the hairpin, and better under braking too. maybe they were "doing a McLaren" & running super high downforce which would also explain the lower top speed?

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

The Subaru's were better out of the hairpin, and better under braking too. maybe they were "doing a McLaren" & running super high downforce which would also explain the lower top speed?

I think thats one thing I wouldn't mind seeing actually, perhaps a topic for another thread, but it would be good if they had an adjustable rear wing, say with 3 settings, ie a low, medium and high wing setting. Right now as I understand it the rear wings are completely frozen and “unadjustable”.

[S griffin]

Ash Sutton back on top, completely dominant weekend from him. We will have to see how they go for the rest of the season, as this was a RWD favoured circuit. Plato driving better, what a mistake by him though to throw away that front row position in R2, at least he made a decent recovery, although in R3 he looked ordinary

Colin and Tingram consistent weekends keep them on top, they should still be fighting for it at the end of the season. Matt had a quiet weekend to get into 3rd in the championship and consistent weekends from Sonic and Tordoff too. Goff and Morgan had a mare, both need a stellar weekend in Snetterton to get back in the title race

Well done to Lloyd getting his and BTC's first win, it's just reward for a talented driver who always seems to be left on the sidelines.

Shame for both Jelley and Austin, after qualifying so well, although Jelley looked good in R3, just missing out on a point. Hopefully he can do well at Snetterton, another RWD favoured track

The driver of the meeting for me was Jack Doohan, what great passes through the field in both races

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Racer65

Big difference between not pushing to get 27th place over 30th and not providing the correct feedback.

Any driver at this level, especially two with three championships between them, should be able to provide the correct feedback for any problems with the car.

I'm not sure how you can give feedback on a car if you've parked it?

Or how it performs on it's limits if you're not taking it there?

[cameronpoe]

The issue with the Subaru cars is very complex and I do not understand the technical aspects but I have access to an engineer in one of the top teams on the grid and he explained it in the following terms.

The Subaru is basically a GT car in as much as the engine is behind the front axle, in this respect in his words every other car in the paddock is doing amazing to be competitive with it.

What may well have happened is that the Subaru engine issues which are present and ongoing made the car less than competitive, Engine development is very very expensive, and it would appear the decision was taken to allow the chassis to be developed for Oulton Park this would help the down on power engine, the Toca technical guys make public what is allowed.
While Jason had yet more engine issues at Oulton , Ash when running was pretty competitive.
At Croft the boost was lifted by the amount shown in the technical bulletin and while clever people in the paddock lift an eyebrow at the published amount of boost to what they think was applied, there is no doubt the car is not very fast in a straight line however it is fast up through the gears as anyone watching like me from Sunny out could see , this section of track favours a lot of torque, so I would not get hung up on speed traps they only tell a small part of the story.
Clearly it is very unusual for a team to go from uncompetitive to dominant in 2 weeks and without the benefit of testing so it is easy to see how people react but I think as above it was a perfect storm, the car is comfortable the fastest car in terms of its performance envelope on the Grid, Toca needed to make a level playing field to allow other teams a chance and they made changes for 018, the issues around the engine caused a change of heart and the chassis was allowed some development, although BMR had more engine changes at Croft in the evening, the engines hung together with the increase in boost to allow Ash to win 2 races, I think the engine had to be turned down for R3 to save it, Plato,s failed.
The longer term question is can the engines be made reliable to allow the car to dominate as in 017 and if that happens were do the other teams go and , that is the big picture as explained to me and no doubt will rumble on until Snetterton were according to the pundits the car should be less competitive but it dominated last year and effectively these victories set in motion part of the "pull back" on the car for 018.
Sutton is good ,probably very good but nobody Verstappen, Vettel, Lewis anybody can make the level of difference that occured Saturday and Sunday at Croft , it was as I said a perfect storm of Tocas making and they will have to sort it out if the car runs and hides at Snetterton