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Old 19 Jul 2011, 00:13 (Ref:2928340)   #46
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Originally Posted by MGDavid View Post
I usually shake my head at your posts, but this is the most extreme example of self-contradiction yet

I don't suppose it's worth asking you to substantiate it?

The post was in response to this bit of gttouring's post

"i can't think of many World of Outlaw or Midget/ sprint USAC silver crown head accidents from debris, and someone goes end over end in every race."

I was merely eluding to the fact that Sprint car racing is not a bastion of good practice in racing safety, do in fact have full roll cages around the drivers, and still does injure and kill a lot of drivers.


Go here

http://www.motorsportmemorial.org/index.php?db=ct

and search for Sprint Car fatalities. 27 Fatalities since 2000.
I have no idea how many injuries.

Last edited by wnut; 19 Jul 2011 at 00:27.
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Old 19 Jul 2011, 00:44 (Ref:2928343)   #47
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Originally Posted by Lotusonpole View Post
Pics of both the BT24 and Protos are on...
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/vie...php?f=6&t=7107
Below the Spitfire pic.

P
Thanks mate.

Never seen a picture of the car actually running before.

This from within the article was good too

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/07/2...n-improvement/

interesting to see Fittipaldi advocating canopies 15 years ago.
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Old 19 Jul 2011, 00:58 (Ref:2928346)   #48
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In order to release the canopy all that you would have to do is position an air jack/ram beneath or next to the roll over protection bar and under the canopy.
Powered by its own air bottle and actuated like the on board extinguisher system.
This would be able to push the canopy off the car, right a car that had overturned, or force the car clear of an obstacle that the car was up against, trapping the driver in. A scenario that we have seen from time to time in tyre walls etc.
A device like this would have saved Roger Williamson's life when he was trapped uninjured under his overturned car at Zandvoort.
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Old 19 Jul 2011, 01:03 (Ref:2928349)   #49
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My preliminary thought is that this is quite silly from a risk management perspective. I’m sure some one with the stats could work out the formula but based on my 20 something years watching open cockpit motor racing the likelihood (amount of races in history Vs. amount of incidents of Massa’s type) is quite low and the consequence is also low (most likely consequence, not worst case consequence) due to existing controls such as helmet, HANS etc. If putting in place further controls because of silly damage control, knee jerk reaction bureaucratic freaks only heightens the risk of other hazards… Well it’s just all gone mad over a risk that was quite low to begin with!

A lot of people blame safety people for this sort of over-the-topness, but are wrong to do so. It’s people in much higher places that know nothing about safety and risk that force safety people to come up with these things. Everyone’s always answering to someone else a little higher then themselves, and they are always asking, “so, what are we doing about this?”. This ends up going down the food chain till it rests on the shoulders of the safety person to “do something”, even if it is not really necessary for something to be done due to the inherently low risk.

All management see is there is an accident, perhaps a very public accident, something HAS to be done- we HAVE to be seen to be ATTEMPTING to improve.

This is not safety gone mad – its bureaucrats!
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Old 19 Jul 2011, 01:35 (Ref:2928352)   #50
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Originally Posted by wnut View Post
In order to release the canopy all that you would have to do is position an air jack/ram beneath or next to the roll over protection bar and under the canopy.
Powered by its own air bottle and actuated like the on board extinguisher system.
This would be able to push the canopy off the car, right a car that had overturned, or force the car clear of an obstacle that the car was up against, trapping the driver in. A scenario that we have seen from time to time in tyre walls etc.
A device like this would have saved Roger Williamson's life when he was trapped uninjured under his overturned car at Zandvoort.
Unfortunately, I remember Roger Williamson's accident all too well but that was down to fuel tank/chassis design; his car wouldn't have caught fire in the first place, after hitting the Armco.

Last edited by bjohnsonsmith; 19 Jul 2011 at 01:40.
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Old 19 Jul 2011, 01:49 (Ref:2928354)   #51
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Unfortunately I remember Roger Williamson's accident all too well but that was down to fuel tank/chassis design; his car wouldn't have caught fire in the first place, after hitting the Armco.
All that is true BJ but the only thing that needed to happen was that he had to be released from under the car!
If the marshalls had had a crowbar they could have moved the car. If the marshalls had helped Purley in time, if the police had let the crowd help Purley, if the car could have have lifted itself off him as proposed above.

The outcome would not have been so distressingly tragic for all concerned.
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Old 19 Jul 2011, 01:54 (Ref:2928355)   #52
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All that is true BJ but the only thing that needed to happen was that he had to be released from under the car!
If the marshalls had had a crowbar they could have moved the car. If the marshalls had helped Purley in time, if the police had let the crowd help Purley, if the car could have have lifted itself off him as proposed above.

The outcome would not have been so distressingly tragic for all concerned.
But the cars in those days didn't have a roll bar that was worth anything. Since then, how many drivers have walked away, particularly at ovals.
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Old 19 Jul 2011, 02:03 (Ref:2928359)   #53
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But the cars in those days didn't have a roll bar that was worth anything. Since then, how many drivers have walked away, particularly at ovals.
Williamson's roll bar did the business, he was unhurt, he talked to Purley, he just could not escape from under the car which was burning.

Anything that would aid extraction has to be good. Doesn't it?
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Old 19 Jul 2011, 02:17 (Ref:2928365)   #54
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Williamson's roll bar did the business, he was unhurt, he talked to Purley, he just could not escape from under the car which was burning.

Anything that would aid extraction has to be good. Doesn't it?
Of course it has to be but if the roll bar didn't fail, the problem was down to the chassis/fuel tank design.
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Old 19 Jul 2011, 02:41 (Ref:2928369)   #55
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Of course it has to be but if the roll bar didn't fail, the problem was down to the chassis/fuel tank design.
In fairness the car had suffered major trauma by the time it stopped upside down, and had done its bit by keeping the driver alive and relatively uninjured. He was not trapped in the car so much as under it.
At that point extricating him from the car was the problem which should have been performed by the marshalls and rescue personell .........

In my book the problem was that he couldn't get out, go and stand on the other side of the armco, and watch the damn thing burn.

Last edited by wnut; 19 Jul 2011 at 02:50.
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Old 19 Jul 2011, 08:24 (Ref:2928446)   #56
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Thanks mate.

Never seen a picture of the car actually running before.

This from within the article was good too

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/07/2...n-improvement/

interesting to see Fittipaldi advocating canopies 15 years ago.
Now you mention it, I seem to remember Fittipaldi saying something on the subject.
I also remember seeing some artists impressions in a 1970's car magazine showing various F1 cars with full canopies as a nod to, at the time, future possible developments.

P
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Old 19 Jul 2011, 12:23 (Ref:2928537)   #57
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Open wheel car concept (2008) that pursues safety designed by JMIA (Japan Motorracing Industry Association).
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Old 19 Jul 2011, 12:25 (Ref:2928539)   #58
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Awesome! I really like that.

It looks like an 80's car. Really cool.

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Old 19 Jul 2011, 22:42 (Ref:2928751)   #59
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That's certainly a good looking design, I assume it's mainly a ground effect based aero package from the look at it (?). The only thing is that thing in front of the driver's head in terms of vision, I think a proper jet canopy thing would probably be better all round. Call me silly, but I suppose if you could fit headlights on those things night races might be easier, which could have some advantages in heavy rain for example.
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Old 19 Jul 2011, 22:48 (Ref:2928756)   #60
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That reminds me of the March 84C; here's a pic of Rick Mears standing in one, in Super Speedway trim.

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