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Old 17 Jun 2016, 13:40 (Ref:3650949)   #751
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Sure, DPi could be 'merged' into P1 Privateer/Light but as far as I know the ACO will only allow manufacturers into P1 Hybrid so that would mean a big change as well (probably a bigger one than allowing 'dressed down' DPi into P2 to begin with).

BoP will take care of any substantial performance advantages - one of the few more popular common denominators between IMSA and ACO these days.

It's all becoming a bigger blurry mess by the minute anyway...
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Old 17 Jun 2016, 14:37 (Ref:3650961)   #752
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Sure, DPi could be 'merged' into P1 Privateer/Light but as far as I know the ACO will only allow manufacturers into P1 Hybrid so that would mean a big change as well (probably a bigger one than allowing 'dressed down' DPi into P2 to begin with).

BoP will take care of any substantial performance advantages - one of the few more popular common denominators between IMSA and ACO these days.

It's all becoming a bigger blurry mess by the minute anyway...
Is there a rule that states no manufacturers in LMP1-L?
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Old 17 Jun 2016, 14:58 (Ref:3650969)   #753
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I think that the rule says that no actual full factory teams can be in LMP1 privateer. However, there seems to be an allowance for engine supply, as Toyota sold engines to Rebellion in 2014.
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Old 17 Jun 2016, 15:25 (Ref:3650982)   #754
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In nutshell:

LMP1 Hybrid
Factory + Privateer

LMP1 Non-Hybrid

Privateer

The "privateer" cars and engines can be either in-house or customer cars.

Anyway, regarding the "Alpines", I don't see the problem in them being in LMP2, they are just fake-badged Orecas anyway and I don't see Signatech/DC having any more backing or resources than regular moderately budgeted Oreca privateer teams. Of course, it will be insulting if/when that rebranded name will be allowed in LMP2 once the new spec-regs come into force and you are supposed to have only four marques there, but there you go.

Hopefully the grid will be so oversubscribed anyway that even if there was theoretical "DPi" requesting entry into LMP1 privateer and willing to make all the necessary adjustments, that ACO would just reject entry or throw them at the bottom of the reserves. I have no desire to see some fake performance balanced non-LMP1-sort-of-LMP2s in the LMP1 category just for the sake of it. Especially if the US teams would expect to be allowed in at Le Mans (in P1 privateer), but reversely the LMP1 privateers couldn't enter Daytona/Sebring/PLM because Scotty says no.

Last edited by Chiana; 17 Jun 2016 at 15:34.
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Old 17 Jun 2016, 15:38 (Ref:3650988)   #755
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The Alpine, Ligier and Morgan LMP2 deals are just branding (little more than a sticker and maybe some sponsorship for the parent maker of the cars in Onroak's case) on these cars, which is legal in LMP2 as long as they don't become factory teams. It's just cheap advertising for some car makers, basically.
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Old 17 Jun 2016, 17:49 (Ref:3651029)   #756
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The current IMSA teams are not in house OEM factory teams, even if their equipment is partly created by OEM funded programs. I don't think it's an issue.

With the chassis carry over announced for LMP1-L, DPi does fit almost entirely inside it, the biggest mandatory modification would be the fuel flow sensor, and you would probably want to swap wings too. Getting anywhere near 830kg could be a problem though.
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Old 17 Jun 2016, 18:15 (Ref:3651038)   #757
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The current IMSA teams are not in house OEM factory teams, even if their equipment is partly created by OEM funded programs. I don't think it's an issue.

With the chassis carry over announced for LMP1-L, DPi does fit almost entirely inside it, the biggest mandatory modification would be the fuel flow sensor, and you would probably want to swap wings too. Getting anywhere near 830kg could be a problem though.
Do not bring truth into the matter, after all, that is why they do not fit in P2 as they are werks teams by god!









L.P.
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Old 17 Jun 2016, 18:39 (Ref:3651047)   #758
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There's a little bit of difference between just slapping a sticker on a car and selling customer engines to all comers who ask for them if you can ship them to your customers, vs what IMSA is trying to do.

And what IMSA is trying to do is allow (and, in fact, actively encourage) OEMs to design body kits for their cars (which, granted are subject to BOP), and other things that are just more than simply putting decals on a car built by someone else as a branding exercise, or selling engines.

No to mention the "target demographics" of ACO LMP2 vs IMSA DPI, one being a true privateer category with no or minimal direct factory involvement, vs one that's biased to being an all-professional category with overt factory assistance.

It's not Audi Sport, Porsche Motorsport, or Toyota Motorsport GmbH level, but it's still more than what's supposed to be in a private class. The relatively large amount of spending that Porsche and Acura/HPD did on their LMP2 programs in the mid-late 2000's is what drove this whole thing to begin with for the ACO.

In the end, I see this as a bunch of egos on both sides jockeying for power and prestige and we're also talking a rivalry between Jim France and the ACO that goes back to 1997 when IMSA adopted ACO/FIA regs for prototypes and GT1 cars instead of keeping IMSA as it was from 1993-97.

I had the feeling that from the start, things weren't gonna end well considering that the France family/NASCAR/ISC and the ACO never got along back then, and it seems that things haven't changed since 2013, either. There's fault on both sides in this rivalry that seems to have tainted the global LMP2 plans.
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Old 17 Jun 2016, 19:07 (Ref:3651061)   #759
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There's basically no takers from full time IMSA to LM. Why is this such a big deal?
I was thinking about this today. ESM left IMSA to go full stock into WEC, Shank is there this year, and Fresh from Florida Racing (or whatever spirit of daytona is called today) will be going next year. Khrohn also takes a P2 car there but he runs in the ELMS normally insteasd of IMSA. But of the drivers currently in IMSA P2, many of them are represented at Le mans this year. The Taylors are with Corvette, Goosens and Daizel are there, Barbosa is there too.
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Old 17 Jun 2016, 19:31 (Ref:3651068)   #760
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Originally Posted by chernaudi View Post
And what IMSA is trying to do is allow (and, in fact, actively encourage) OEMs to design body kits for their cars (which, granted are subject to BOP), and other things that are just more than simply putting decals on a car built by someone else as a branding exercise, or selling engines.
More accurately, they want to FORCE that on anyone who doesn't want to run a spec P2. Want an OEM engine? You MUST run the bodykit.

I personally think it's ridiculous. They want the GM engine, let them just buy the GM engine.
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Old 17 Jun 2016, 19:42 (Ref:3651070)   #761
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ESM left because it didn't find any advertising RoI with IMSA .... getting tequila Patron's name on the mini-series seemed a better route, and WEC allows Patron to be introduced to new markets (and gives Ed some slim chance of seeing a podium.)

Shank is living the dream; he is one of those guys turning a huge fortune into a tiny fortune through auto racing. He is not likely to win much in IMSA and certainly not at Le Mans, but he can Race at Le Mans---and to him the ride is worth price of the ticket.

Krohn also knows that if he drives in IMSA, his team loses; one simply can't go that slowly (or stay on track so rarely) and expect one's team to make up the difference in a three-hour race. In ELMS he can about hand with the other Pro-Ams. He is paying to play, and it is worth it to him ... but he'd like at least a passing chance at a podium himself.

The drivers go because, it is, after all, Le Mans. The drivers don't care about the ongoing feud between FIA-ACO and whichever U.S. body is trying to ruin sportscar racing; the drivers want to run in the big show, and add Le Mans starts to their palmares.

For most teams .... no reason to go. Their sponsors are U.S.-based so they cannot race in Europe; they can't get auto-invites; they cannot afford a car and crew just for Le Mans; the enormous cost would outweigh any potential business gains.

And in any case, Chip Ganassi is already there, the Taylors are there as drivers, Mazda plans (somehow) to compete there in the not-to-distant future .... which team is not on the grid there? Starworks can't even afford a P-class entry any more. AXR is pretty much a NASCAR subsidiary.

As Chernaudu hints, IMSA Wants more manufacturer involvement---in the form of advertising dollars. Chevy doesn't want to spend much money building its own car; it is totally happy selling crate engines and getting its name on things, why would it want to risk having its own team, which could lose, when it could have a handful of teams?

But that is very real factory involvement; Chevy pays its fees to be allowed to play in IMSA. I am sure Chevy also provides whatever engineering help it can, which Gibson will also do, I am sure; but Chevy only helps Chevy teams, so it is not a balanced playing field as it will be in WEC/ELMS.

Sure WTR and AXR aren't werks teams; however, they do benefit from links to a manufacture.

Mazda is a werks team.

FIA doesn't want Any manufacturer money going into P2. Manufacturer money might scare away the overly rich amateurs which FIA wants to fleece to let them race in P2. So no, AXR is not a werks team but is not comparable to say, Signatech.

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In the end, I see this as a bunch of egos on both sides jockeying for power and prestige and we're also talking a rivalry between Jim France and the ACO that goes back to 1997 when IMSA adopted ACO/FIA regs for prototypes and GT1 cars instead of keeping IMSA as it was from 1993-97.
QFT
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Old 17 Jun 2016, 19:47 (Ref:3651071)   #762
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If the market for customer nonhybrid LMP1s existed and was made possible by the organizers (you know, I don't know, in ELMS wink wink).. and say Oreca had fleet of R-One/04s laying around ready for short term leasing much to the way like in LMP2 now, these American teams could just come to Europe and rent REAL LMP1 Privateer cars on one-off, one race basis. They could keep their DPi-sticker-whatevers in States and come to Europe, running their semi-OEM-supported pro teams with non spec engines, without restrictions, without massive costs due to it being single event. And most importantly as teams without fear of not gaining entry spot. Because as REAL 100% ACO LMP1s, ACO would gladly welcome them all in automatically, no questions asked.

Last edited by Chiana; 17 Jun 2016 at 19:52.
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Old 17 Jun 2016, 23:15 (Ref:3651132)   #763
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I still hold on to this fantasy that IMSA will deem the DPI cars won't be ready as soon as they think and that they will debut at Sebring in 2017. Thus making Daytona only GTLM/GTD/LMPC. Thus making a GTLM a favorite to take overall victory.

That would not be a bad thing if that happened! Consider it IMSA guys.
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Old 17 Jun 2016, 23:21 (Ref:3651136)   #764
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I still hold on to this fantasy that IMSA will deem the DPI cars won't be ready as soon as they think and that they will debut at Sebring in 2017. Thus making Daytona only GTLM/GTD/LMPC. Thus making a GTLM a favorite to take overall victory.

That would not be a bad thing if that happened! Consider it IMSA guys.
Even if the said scenario occurred, it's infinitely more likely that they'll just allow the old dinosaur DPs to the race

(they'll probably do anyway, whatever they may claim now)
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Old 17 Jun 2016, 23:58 (Ref:3651141)   #765
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What'll happen if the DPis can't be ready in time is that everyone will be forced to run ACO bodywork.
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