Quarter flag, chaos in endurance racing

[Guisbro Rod H]

The black and yellow flag was used in a 90 minute endurance race to permit the snatching of a dangerously positioned car at Croft on 8 Sept. CHAOS. HOW SHOULD THIS CHAOS BE PREVENTED. (See also the madness goes on thread)

Endurance race about 75% through coming to the end of the pit window for compulsory stop to change drivers. Many cars lapped by this stage, many had pit stop, others still in need of pit stop. Flaggies having good blue practice when a yellow waves into action. Car in a dangerous place.

Quarter flag goes out as per regulations and picks up leader. All OK so far. The leader was well ahead of the next car on the road who was lapped and running say about 10th place.

Driver in leading car is no fool and dives into pits for a driver change. Perfectly correct but it causes chaos.

The car second on the road (10 place car in race) is desperately trying to catch the leader to make a train of cars as required; this driver doesn't know the leader has pitted so he is chasing a non-existant car. The car behind is the 11th car in race deperately trying to catch the 10th place man. He cannot do this because by definition the 10th place man is pulling away from the man in position 11. Worse behind 11th is the second place man wanting to lap 11th car but cannot because of the quatered flag means no overtaking.

Got the picture, everyone is trying to catch the faster man in front or are in two or threes with the fast cars stuck behind. Result no train being formed. How do you persuade a man who knows from his pit board that he is tenth that he is actually leading the cars on the road and should be controlling the race and forming a train behind him.

Yes we had a string of cars thrashing round at racing speed and no access to the dangerous car with the quarter flag properly displayed.

OK at Croft we are clever and eventually got it sorted.

Should a black and yellow quartered flag be limited to short races?

Should we use safety cars in endurance racing so that the correct car is slowed into a train when people are diving in and out of the pits for compulsory stops?

What do you think?

[EvilPumpkin]

I can't see how the quartered flag could ever work in an endurance race situation - I would totally expect to see what you describe happen - a lot of the drivers probably didn't even know where they were supposed to be.

IMO any race that involves pit stops should automatically have a proper safety car

[rick vaux]

Im too drunk to care anyway, and so should you at this night of time....

[jase]

Got to echo EP, any race that has an endurance tag with madatory pit stops/driver changes should in my oppinion use a safety car not the 1/4 flag. The 1/4 flag is great for sprints (when the drivers know how to behave )

[Warwick]

I haven't ever heard of or seen a quarter flag,what is it for?

[neilwaynesmith]

The alternative is to close the pitlane for the duration of the 1/4'd flag period? Anybody?

[Stephen Green]

The black and yellow quartered flag is in effect a full course yellow/safety car replacement flag. The leader is supposed to slow down and the field bunch up while the marshals/recovery crews remove the offending car from it's dangerous position. The idea was to stop red flag situations and therefore allow meetings to end on time.

As far as the leader pitting is concerned, surely the guy running in second place would be made aware he was the new race leader as soon as he passed his pit crew on the next lap?

[EvilPumpkin]

Warwick - it was tried in Ireland for one season and has now been dropped as it simply wasn't working - I believe they've had a lot more luck with it in the UK.

Stephen, maybe he would - but how long will it be to him passing his pit crew if there's a significant difference between him and the race leader? Particularly if the "train" is passing by the incident prior to the pit lane entry. On larger circuits, couldn't you have up to 3/4 of a lap of some guy speeding around trying to find the leader before realising he IS the leader?

[Stephen Green]

True but then the safety car has a similar problem I would have thought.

[pinki]

Quite simple, tell the buggers in the briefing that if they don't slow down to a sensible pace then they will incure a drive thru'

[Stephen Green]

Welcome back Keith...

[jase]

Originally posted by Stephen Green
True but then the safety car has a similar problem I would have thought.

If the safety car has managed to pick up the leader who then peels off into the pits, the next car in line then takes the leaders role what ever, other wise you could have a whole stream of cars pass the SC to get to 2nd place driver.

[theracegypsy]

My personal view, which I have been pushing for years, is that we should be using North American stlye communications, with open line talk back. Then this situation would have been immediately apparent to all teams, and as I expect their technology is well in front of the marshals net at Croft, the drivers would have known instantly that a) there was a black/yellow flag, & b) leader had pitted.
In the event I think that several drivers also should take some blame. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe the Blue Book requires a train for B/Y flack, but expects all drivers to slow to 50 mph, and not to overtake. It does not take the place of the full course yellow which the rest of the world uses, but has a slightly different function.

[pinki]

Originally posted by Stephen Green
Welcome back Keith...

I wasn't aware I had been away

I've been lurking around just not posting on the forum.

[Guisbro Rod H]

I understood that the cars were supposed to slow sufficiently for safety reasons on seeing the quarter flag, join the back of the que formed by the leader at 50mph. I will read the blue book whilst waiting for the lady marshals to buy the men a drink after the end of the racing at Mondello this weekend. I should have plenty of time to read waiting for the ladies to honour their promise.

Then after the Sunday meeting whilst waiting for a drink from the lady marshals I will try and discover if a Safety Car lets everybody through until the second man in race or next car on road, it might be defined by supplimentary regulations.
I realise my ignorance.

At Le Mans, Daytona or even a F3 or GT race at Croft we can expect suitable communications by radio, etc as suggested by theracegypsy. But this was a bunch of amateurs at the Jaguar Car Club meeting (only one Jaguar entered into meeting!). They had pit signals for some and not others and they consisted of lap time, position, and come into the pits. They didn't have a pit board that said "Dear Chap, the leader has pitted and although you are 10th on the road would you mind awfully slowing down to 50 mph so that everybody can play follow-my-leader behind you in a train of vehicles at 50mph." There is not space on the pit board and the amateur pit crews did not have enough letters to write a message.

Look the marshals had done their job perfectly following the start line initiation of the black and yellow quartered flag. It took 5 laps to persuade the Clerks to remember there was a race in progress and think about what to do.

The snatch took less than one and a half minutes but it took many laps to get the cars/drivers under control.

I do suspect that a pace car with comunication with the Clerks and Time Keepers is the best solution. Telling them in briefing is impossible because it had not been predicted by the Clerks. The Clerks probably do not read your words of wisdom.

Closing the pit lane? I wonder.

[jase]

Originally posted by Guisbro Rod H
..........Closing the pit lane? I wonder.

IMO you can't close the pit lane, all you can do is limit how and when you allow a pitted vehicle back onto the track during a 1/4 flag period.

[Chris Y]

Okay, here's some information plucked from the Big Bad Blue Book:

The brief description of the battenburg flag says (page 22, Section B): Slow down, no overtaking

Not very helpful, but it does say "see J 16 for details". J 16.1 (p) says:

This flag may be introduced by the Clerk of the Course following a report from an observer. The flag will first be displayed at the start/finish line and then in trackwise order at all flag points. On passing the flag at the start/finish line, the Race leader must slow down sufficiently (to around 50mph/80kph maximum) and all competing cars must line up in order behind the Race leader who will act as the pace setter. No overtaking is permitted.
The field will remain in close formation, at reduced speed, for as long as it takes to clear the obstruction or remove the hazard, whatever its nature. Competitors who fail to slow down sufficiently or who overtake under the Yellow/Black flag, thereby gaining an advantage, may be excluded or otherwise penalised.
When the Clerk of the Course is satisfied that the track is clear, or the problem resolved, the Race will be resumed with a Green flag at the start/finish line and the simultaneous withdrawal of all Yellow/Black flags around the circuit.

No mention of what to do when the leader pits, and the concept of "competing cars must line up in order" is a puzzling one. Is that race order, or on-track order? i.e. if you're behind the leader, but 10th overall, are you allowed to pass the leader and catch up to your proper place?

Clear as mud

[Piglet]

Ahh good legal wording, drafted as vaguely as possible to enable it to say whatever you want it to say!

With regard to pit stop races, I think any championship that permits the use of this flag (and I think it has to be permitted by championship regs???) should make sure that they have a provision in their own reg's to clarify the situation regarding pit stops. Just closing the pit lane wouldn't really be practical as you would then have to communicate to all of the teams and the drivers (see point above about communication) when the revised stop window etc. would come into force, this would be tricky to do at all but the higher levels of competition.

As for lining up "in order" - whatever you (or your lawyer!) would like it to mean unless it is defined otherwise in the blue book or in any precedent cases (unlikely to be any precedent I guess). Any half competent law student could argue it either way.

My suggestion is that as they particuarly say "trackwise order" in the first half of the paragraph and don't say that in the second half you could argue that it doesn't mean trackwise order otherwise it would say so. But I could argue it the other way if I needed to!

Still more money for the lawyers!

[theracegypsy]

It makes it even more obvious we should get pressure on the ASNs of our countries to have standard world wide full course and/or pace car regulation. I am firmly of the opinion that championships should not be allowed to make up or modify the rule book.

[Peter Harding]

I have been warning CoC for a couple of years that B/Y doesn't work on long/driver change races. At Brands I have seen the same situation as the lead message but eventually one car slowed to lead the pack. The leader, however had come out again and was in 5th position in train.
Start line gave HIM the green and he then started overtaking the ones in front who were still under B/Y. Flag marshals didn't know who to target for B/Y withdrawel.

One option is to create a list of cars in train after leader on first B/Y lap and diplay first 3 on a board. Update this on each lap and brief drivers that, if they are shown on board, they should act accordingly. The leader will always be the front of train irrespective of position in race.

It could work with intelligent drivers.

On second thoughts - forget it!

[Ian Sowman]

Surely there's no need to 'target' any car for B&Y withdrawal - as the blue book extract above states, all the B&Y flags should be removed simultaneously with the green being waved. But I'm a journalist, not a marshal, so I could be missing something.

[Richy_Rich]

I've driven under B&Y flags a couple of times, and being a bit of a 'tail end charlie' (it's my first season) I can say it's pretty bloody confusing.

First you get a good warning from the Clerk of Course before the race, 'bunch up, catch the leader, etc. last weekend etc. CHAOS etc.'

Then you go racing, flag comes out. Can't see the leader (or sometimes anyone)? Never been told what to do here - slow down to 50, which is the speed everyone else is going and therefore never form a train? Slow down, but to about 60 odd and hope to catch up?

I've often wondered if it's best, in this situation to slow to walking pace and wait for the 'train' to pass and join in at the back - loosing a lap in the process? No one I've asked really seems to know.

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by Richy_Rich
I've often wondered if it's best, in this situation to slow to walking pace and wait for the 'train' to pass and join in at the back - loosing a lap in the process? No one I've asked really seems to know.

Hmmm.....it's an interesting problem. Having been trackside dealing with incidents under the Battenburg flag, I know that stragglers cause problems - they negate the purpose of the flag, which is to create a big enough time gap to allow marshals, etc., to work in relative safety.

My personal opinion, & it's no more than that, is that you should slow down to 50 or so until you have passed the incident & then speed up, but not to racing speed, to catch the 'train'; there could, of course, be more than one incident but there will be waved yellows at any incident where people are working.

Slowing down to let the 'train' overtake you could cause problems, as overtaking under the quartered flag is illegal.

[Stone-kicker]

I've often wondered if it's best, in this situation to slow to walking pace and wait for the 'train' to pass and join in at the back - loosing a lap in the process? No one I've asked really seems to know.

No! Proceed at speed (9/10ths) until you catch the train, then slow to the speed of the train thus forming the train as quickly as possible and allowing us to do our job with the minimum number of laps under the safety flag. You should however still respect the yellow flags that will still be displayed at the scene of the incident.

[Richy_Rich]

Cool, that's what I thought/did.

My problem is that the leaders' (in my case driving 3.5+ litre V8's) idea of 'slow' is my (1.3 litre unmodified) idea of quite a clip really...

It was pointed out by one CoC that in one of our races some of the leaders times under yellows were actually faster than their previous laps. Hmmm.