Supercars Gen 3 (2022)

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Casper

Motorsport if based on production vehicles will not continue as it was so we need to get used to that idea. Ford for instance has one remaining vehicle made in the US that might be termed a touring car, anyone like to forecast how long the current Mustang will last before it gets the chop? I think some sort of retro series might be a possibility but the interest in that will die as those who grew up and drove those cars are no longer with us. Why does no one see what is happening? Sand and heads spring to mind.

If Supercars wants to remain relevant then, it should get the jump on defining a benchmark set of electric SUV racing regulations for worldwide use. Ford, for instance, have already shown the future of Mustang lies as market-relevant electric SUV.

In that case, why the heck are Supercars stuffing around with out-dated V8s and coupes!?

[Casper]

Originally Posted by bludvl_x19

Well, that's just not true.
https://www.btcc.net/

Sorry, I mislead you. By anywhere else I meant as a common term outside of motorsport. No one says I just bought a touring car do they.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

If Supercars wants to remain relevant then, it should get the jump on defining a benchmark set of electric SUV racing regulations for worldwide use. Ford, for instance, have already shown the future of Mustang lies as market-relevant electric SUV.

In that case, why the heck are Supercars stuffing around with out-dated V8s and coupes!?

Vested interests and old farts springs to mind. Even NASCAR the bastion of red necks and V8's are at least planning a way forward in their latest car and they must know that NASCAR will be a shadow of its former self when that happens. It is being reported that the new Lightning F150 BEV has very long waiting lists so perhaps even the rednecks are getting the message. Go totally retro or get with the coming changes to electric seem to be the only solution at the moment. If someone built a skateboard platform dedicated to a sedan/coupe/sportscar it might even make motorsport cheaper for all concerned. Unfortunately it is early days in a huge social change, perhaps the biggest social change since the industrial revolution, electric light might top it but that would be all. Whatever happens motor sport is going to cop a very long cold bath.

[bathurst77]

I have no problem with supercars concept or what they are
Im not interested but its there for those who like it

However people call them "touring cars".. that, they are not. They are restricted sports sedans (as are TCMs) and getting close to spec racing.

I think the ATCC trophy (Which supercars dont promote or really mention) should be moved to GT3 or ATC or production racing.
Supercars dont trade on or particularly care about the ATCC name and title, so why not give it to a real touring car class?

"Touring cars" are (highly) modified road cars, not bespoke chassis with "pretend" body panels.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

I think the ATCC trophy (Which supercars dont promote or really mention) should be moved to GT3 or ATC or production racing.
Supercars dont trade on or particularly care about the ATCC name and title, so why not give it to a real touring car class?

"Touring cars" are (highly) modified road cars, not bespoke chassis with "pretend" body panels.

Is it time to award the ATCC & Bathurst 1000 for TCR?

They are made out of actual cars at least, with a relatively minimal roll-cage fitted and using factory suspension points.

http://www.superstreetonline.com/fea...-tour#photo-26

It seems like Supercars have decided they need an elaborate tubeframe with nearly a hundred tubes in it, but why? Do they really? Surely a basic cage that complies with FIA specification fitted to a real Mustang or Camaro body is more than adequate?

https://media.speedcafe.com/wp-conte...1/05/CAD05.jpg

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

It seems like Supercars have decided they need an elaborate tubeframe with nearly a hundred tubes in it, but why? Do they really? Surely a basic cage that complies with FIA specification fitted to a real Mustang or Camaro body is more than adequate?

Mike Burgmann
Don Watson
Gregg Hansford
Mark Porter

These are the reasons the main game doesn't race production shells with FIA specification cages anymore.

[chavez]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Mike Burgmann
Don Watson
Gregg Hansford
Mark Porter

These are the reasons the main game doesn't race production shells with FIA specification cages anymore.

Did the injuries inflicted on the drivers listed above a result of using "production shells with FIA specification cages"?

Is there a report that makes this conclusion?

[Mixer]

All of them died because of insufficient occupant protection because of the limitations of production based shells and seating position of the driver.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Mike Burgmann
Don Watson
Gregg Hansford
Mark Porter

These are the reasons the main game doesn't race production shells with FIA specification cages anymore.

Yet production bodyshells with FIA roll cages are raced without issue in GT3 racing, which is both faster than the ATCC and races not just at Mount Panorama but also at the even more dangerous Nurburgring Norschleife circuit.

There is the odd steel monocoque (Porsche 911 > http://www.total911.com/wp-content/u...-R-cockpit.jpg ) and odd carbon tub (McLaren), but the vast majority of those cars are simple lightweight aluminium spaceframes.

Ferrari 488 chassis
Ferrari 458 with FIA roll cage

Yes, Allan Simonsen was sadly killed in a substantial similar Ferrari GTE car, but at the end of the day the whole point of touring car racing (as with GT racing) is road cars turned into racing cars (as Needell demonstrates with the iconic Ford Sierra). Otherwise, what's the point? If you are going to build a purpose built race car, you are better off building a proper one with the driver & engine sitting on the floor like a sports prototype or Formula car.

[Mixer]

8 people dead in production-based cars at the Nurgurgring in the past 20 years.

2 dead in April in a GT3 car in Targa Tasmania.

Sean Edwards killed at QR in 2013 in a PCC car.

Not more than badly broken bones since the Supercars COTF, and Courtney's and Mostert's examples were very serious accidents.

The world has moved on, nobody cares about your ridiculously narrow definition of "touring car".

Safer, easier to repair bespoke chassis with production-like hanging panels is the best option for competitive, equal racing while maintaining driver safety.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Otherwise, what's the point? If you are going to build a purpose built race car, you are better off building a proper one with the driver & engine sitting on the floor like a sports prototype or Formula car.

Things are changing and I think you need to understand that because the change in the market place is going to force change whether we like it or not. Your ideal is being taken away bit by bit and everyone, you, me and all fans of touring car racing needs to accept there is no turning back. Where it goes no one knows but it is absolutely going to change and I think that series such as SC simply don't know what to do in the unprecedented circumstances that are slowly evolving. If anyone here can show me how we can prevent this change I will gladly listen because I don't think the SC management has any idea at all. The idea on which the series depended has dried up and gone away so a new series must be invented or a lot of people with money invested are going to be very upset.

[V8 Fireworks]

In concept they are finalized in their position in the car, but then you have to turn the CAD into engineering drawings. It's one thing to put the car together as a CAD model, but you can't manufacture from a CAD model.

- Adrian Burgess
https://www.motorsport.com/v8superca...eline/6521703/

All they have is a CAD model, let alone drawings or moulds! What a farce!

I think they are better off waiting until 2023, so the Mustang can be the new shape Mustang, instead of having to design the Mustang bodywork twice...

Originally Posted by Casper

The idea on which the series depended has dried up and gone away so a new series must be invented or a lot of people with money invested are going to be very upset.

Electric SUV racing then?

[Casper]

Would you like to watch electric cars racing around Bathurst next October, I certainly wouldn't and what vehicles would you like to see. It is way to early for the change for a lot of reasons and that is a huge problem in itself. Between that and all the other problems starting to manifest themselves motor sport is caught between a rock and a hard place. Curiously a change to all electric would make racing cheaper for the entrant which is exactly what they need and make the playing field a whole lot more even for all entrants.

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Electric SUV racing then?

[Compromised]

Originally Posted by Mixer

8 people dead in production-based cars at the Nurgurgring in the past 20 years.

2 dead in April in a GT3 car in Targa Tasmania.

Sean Edwards killed at QR in 2013 in a PCC car.

Not more than badly broken bones since the Supercars COTF, and Courtney's and Mostert's examples were very serious accidents.

The world has moved on, nobody cares about your ridiculously narrow definition of "touring car".

Safer, easier to repair bespoke chassis with production-like hanging panels is the best option for competitive, equal racing while maintaining driver safety.

Quite damning, especially when you consider Supercars decent top end speed and some of the tracks they visit are old-school dangerous.

[rich07]

Originally Posted by Mixer

8 people dead in production-based cars at the Nurgurgring in the past 20 years.

2 dead in April in a GT3 car in Targa Tasmania.

Sean Edwards killed at QR in 2013 in a PCC car.

Not more than badly broken bones since the Supercars COTF, and Courtney's and Mostert's examples were very serious accidents.

The world has moved on, nobody cares about your ridiculously narrow definition of "touring car".

Safer, easier to repair bespoke chassis with production-like hanging panels is the best option for competitive, equal racing while maintaining driver safety.

That was a Porsche GT3 that crashed at Targa. Not a GT3 car. Two different cars and two different cages.

For anyone doubting the strength of a FIA GT3 cage there have been a number of monumental shunts involving such cars over the years and they’ve come up pretty well given the number of cars running around and the tracks they run. I’d trust my life with one those.

[tux]

The good news is they’ll move to paddle shift so that’s plenty of early mornings avoided in the future. Thanks...

[Sandgroper]

Originally Posted by tux

The good news is they’ll move to paddle shift so that’s plenty of early mornings avoided in the future. Thanks...

Thats not confirmed as yet and not favourable with alot of the current drivers

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Sandgroper

Thats not confirmed as yet and not favourable with alot of the current drivers

I think Burgess said today that the decision had been made in principle.... the existing manual shift will definitely be replaced by an Electronic Automatic Gear Shift system on the Gen3 cars.

So be it stick or paddle it will be electronically operated. The current Xtrac Transaxle can work with electronic auto gear shift.
The AGS move also opens the door for an automated blip system to be employed.

OK found the article I read....

Burgess said

"It will be electronic shift, whatever happens, there will be an electronic actuator on the gearbox that will actually make the shift,"

"The only difference is whether the signal is coming from a flipper on the steering wheel or from the lever."

"We'll test both of those systems when the prototypes are up and running."

"The modern ECUs, even in our current ECU, you can turn throttle blip on and off."

"In an ideal world, for the long life of the gearbox and the engine, this is why you want electronic shifts – it will protect the engine and protect it from over-revs. You can have a cleaner gear shift because the ECU is controlled in the blip, as opposed to the driver controlling the blip."

"With the current system, the driver can over-rev and we do see huge differences from one team to another in how good their drivers are at protecting the engine."

That quote is from Autosport today in their article regarding all things Gen 3 and the timeline.
https://www.autosport.com/supercars/...eline/6525125/

In essence reading between the lines it is not looking good for the heel & toe diehards that have to do the job. It seems they and fans wishes might be over ruled

[tux]

"With the current system, the driver can over-rev and we do see huge differences from one team to another in how good their drivers are at protecting the engine."

I mean, i appreciate that this can be an expensive issue for teams and something that doesn't need to happen through technology but dont people want to see the BEST drivers separated from the worst through skills?

[Compromised]

Originally Posted by tux

"With the current system, the driver can over-rev and we do see huge differences from one team to another in how good their drivers are at protecting the engine."

I mean, i appreciate that this can be an expensive issue for teams and something that doesn't need to happen through technology but dont people want to see the BEST drivers separated from the worst through skills?

Macaulay Jones - Gen3 inaugural champion

[one five five]

Originally Posted by Mixer

8 people dead in production-based cars at the Nurgurgring in the past 20 years.

2 dead in April in a GT3 car in Targa Tasmania.

Sean Edwards killed at QR in 2013 in a PCC car.

Not more than badly broken bones since the Supercars COTF, and Courtney's and Mostert's examples were very serious accidents.

The world has moved on, nobody cares about your ridiculously narrow definition of "touring car".

Safer, easier to repair bespoke chassis with production-like hanging panels is the best option for competitive, equal racing while maintaining driver safety.

Stacking the figures slightly

Production based cars like you refer to above are raced every weekend in Australia and round the world , Supercars race a dozen times a year . Race Supercars every weekend of every year and see how the figures stack up

[sizzle]

Originally Posted by tux

"With the current system, the driver can over-rev and we do see huge differences from one team to another in how good their drivers are at protecting the engine."

I mean, i appreciate that this can be an expensive issue for teams and something that doesn't need to happen through technology but dont people want to see the BEST drivers separated from the worst through skills?

Same article in Speedcafe


“But equally, a lot of the damage you get with these gearboxes is that timing, actual shift timing, isn’t quite precise enough.

“Then you get a lot of dog-to-dog damage and a lot of dog gear life damage. Those things, of course, because they’re human, it’s a human change.”


Just put robots in then if you don't want humans.

[Compromised]

Originally Posted by sizzle

Same article in Speedcafe


“But equally, a lot of the damage you get with these gearboxes is that timing, actual shift timing, isn’t quite precise enough.

“Then you get a lot of dog-to-dog damage and a lot of dog gear life damage. Those things, of course, because they’re human, it’s a human change.”


Just put robots in then if you don't want humans.

Seriously.

How much does it cost when a driver locks up and puts it in the wall? Better put ABS in?

How much does it cost when a driver gives it too much throttle, spins and puts it in the wall? Better put traction control in.

If they just raced each other on a video game, that would be quite cheap

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Compromised

Seriously.

How much does it cost when a driver locks up and puts it in the wall? Better put ABS in?

How much does it cost when a driver gives it too much throttle, spins and puts it in the wall? Better put traction control in.

If they just raced each other on a video game, that would be quite cheap

It sounds like there has been a lot of lobbying to reduce costs thrown at this decision. I don't know why there is a lot of opposition to it, following the reasoning some give synchromesh would never have been invented for road cars. Just because the hairy chested fan thinks a lever sticking out of the floor is the epitome of good racing doesn't mean it is. Whoever thought it was a good idea to use disc brakes on a race car should have been shot at dawn.

[Compromised]

Originally Posted by Casper

It sounds like there has been a lot of lobbying to reduce costs thrown at this decision. I don't know why there is a lot of opposition to it, following the reasoning some give synchromesh would never have been invented for road cars. Just because the hairy chested fan thinks a lever sticking out of the floor is the epitome of good racing doesn't mean it is. Whoever thought it was a good idea to use disc brakes on a race car should have been shot at dawn.

IMO it removes an element of skill and subsequently passing opportunities decrease. New regulations (less aero) may render that moot though