[DTM] DTM 2020

[tux]

Hopefully they (DTM) will go away and come up with something cheaper, more privateer friendly. It’s clear works/manufacturer teams aren’t the way to go anymore unless DTM do something really radical.

[Juntos]

It is easier to forgive an enemy than to forgive a friend. DTM and the German fans shall not forget what Audi did to them today.

[W2Motorsport]

Originally Posted by Juntos

It is easier to forgive an enemy than to forgive a friend. DTM and the German fans shall not forget what Audi did to them today.

I don't think that is necessarily true. I don't think Mercedes has had any major problems. Audi is a business and I think simply competing against BMW only week in and week out probably didn't make a lot of business sense. They would probably get a higher return going back to WEC or something like that over keeping the current DTM on life support.

[Tja]

Originally Posted by Juntos

It is easier to forgive an enemy than to forgive a friend. DTM and the German fans shall not forget what Audi did to them today.

It can't really come as a major surprise to ITR no matter what they're saying now. There have been doubts for some time whether Audi will continue past their current contract because of their focus on electric cars. The current Covid situation is a handy excuse for a tough decision they seemed likely to make anyways. It will be interesting to see if Berger has a 'plan B' ready for the future.

With the current economic situation I can't see any Super GT manufacturers joining in 2021 and at the same time it'll be very difficult for independent teams to find enough funding to continue with the Audis. Perhaps it'd be a sensible short term solution for ITR and ADAC to join forces and use the DTM brand with the GT Masters GT3 grid? I can't see two GT3 series working in the same market and also DTM's support programme has been pretty weak for the last few years I think. The only other real option I can see is to go for an aero spec series with limited engine development with the potential to go hybrid or full electric in the near future. I just can't see them continuing with the current cars.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

As a customer team why would you race in DTM in cars that can only be used in DTM rather than race in a GT3 championship? I don't see any manufacturers joining DTM so you need customer cars - and the current DTM cars are expensive and can't be used anywhere else. There's no 'up' side.

The current DTM cars are stunningly quick - I was surprised just how much quicker they are than GT3 cars over a single lap. I don't think you could seriously run the current DTM cars in a mixed grid (certainly not with GT4 or TCR) - the speed differential is too big.

I don't think you'd get a full grid just with the class-1 cars, but e.g. Abt was in DTM as an independent team before Audi joined in an official capacity, so I can see them continuing.

Speed differentials vs GT4 or TCR cars would be big, but keep in mind that ALMS ran Porsche Cup cars in a field with full-on LMP1s, which would have been a similar gap in terms of laptimes. I guess you could also dial the DTM cars back by a bit in the name of cost-savings.

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I’d be surprised if NGTC was suitable for “DTM”. I’d have thought doing something like adopting a form of TCR but with technical concessions would be better like a TCR+ with more power and perhaps a bigger aero kit. I saw there was a TCR Astra which was running at 400bhp testing on YouTube so I guess the added power wouldn’t be too problematic, but the aero could be more difficult I guess.

Germany already has a TCR championship though. And several GT3 championships.

Whatever ITR does has to be different to those, but also has to attract privateer teams, because manufacturers have little to no interest in saloon cars with V8 engines.

To attract privateer teams you need to reduce costs. So restricted testing, restricted number of engines per car and no pit stops.

And if they want to race in Russia, Sweden and Italy, they need to subsidise the travel costs.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by sceptic

Germany already has a TCR championship though. And several GT3 championships.

Whatever ITR does has to be different to those, but also has to attract privateer teams, because manufacturers have little to no interest in saloon cars with V8 engines.

To attract privateer teams you need to reduce costs. So restricted testing, restricted number of engines per car and no pit stops.

And if they want to race in Russia, Sweden and Italy, they need to subsidise the travel costs.

And on top of all of that you can't race silhouette or spec-cars, as Audi, BMW and Mercedes are very cautious when it comes to letting others use their IP and have nixed unauthorized silhouettes in many series (V8STAR, Danish Thundercar/TA2, BTCS) over the years. If you want to call your car an "Audi", it needs to be built by Audi, either as a road or as a racecar. And with racecars being out of the question, you're only choice is to build it on a roadcar shell.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

As a customer team why would you race in DTM in cars that can only be used in DTM rather than race in a GT3 championship? I don't see any manufacturers joining DTM so you need customer cars - and the current DTM cars are expensive and can't be used anywhere else. There's no 'up' side.

The current DTM cars are stunningly quick - I was surprised just how much quicker they are than GT3 cars over a single lap. I don't think you could seriously run the current DTM cars in a mixed grid (certainly not with GT4 or TCR) - the speed differential is too big.

They're basically LMP2 speed. Which is crazy.

[IdealLine]

Originally Posted by sceptic

Germany already has a TCR championship though. And several GT3 championships.

Whatever ITR does has to be different to those, but also has to attract privateer teams, because manufacturers have little to no interest in saloon cars with V8 engines.

To attract privateer teams you need to reduce costs. So restricted testing, restricted number of engines per car and no pit stops.

And if they want to race in Russia, Sweden and Italy, they need to subsidise the travel costs.

I think GT3 just isn't unique enough, and there are at least 4 GT3 championships in Germany alone, no reason to add a 5th one. TCR also isn't unique in the sense of differentiating yourself from the rest of the world, but it's proven to provide great racing. The current TCR Germany isn't that successful with less than 10 cars confirmed for 2020, so maybe that's a serious option to look into. It would be a shame if they were to go for TCR and give them more aero or bhp, the cars are quick enough as they are and it would only make them harder to race (like what happend with WTCC TC1).

The only other option to differentiate themselves enough, with faster cars, would be going electric. But I personally think they've missed that boat, as it takes a lot of development, time and money

[andy97]

In the 70s and 80s Germany had a Group 5 and later a Group C sprint series so why not have something similar for LMP2 and LMP3 cars?

[peebee2]

Good idea. Sprint races with single drivers. Norisring would be mega!

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by andy97

In the 70s and 80s Germany had a Group 5 and later a Group C sprint series so why not have something similar for LMP2 and LMP3 cars?

Good idea. Sprint races with single drivers. Norisring would be mega

While I personally would enjoy that, I really don't think it would work. Privateer prototype racing in Germany is about as dead as it can be. There is no German LMP2 team and the few LMP3s that exist are hobby projects for rich old guys.

And then, a LMP2/3 series would really have none of the ingredients that made DTM semi-successful, i.e. the aggressive roadcar styling, the legitimacy conveyed by manufacturer participation and the ability for fans to delude themselves into thinking that the cars on track are somehow related to the ones in their drive-way.

[champcarman]

I think the DTM should use GTE cars, using GT3 cars as suggested by Hans Stuck would make it just another GT3 Series, they are dime dozen now. Using GTE cars and providing a Series where those cars could race for outright wins would give it a point of difference,

[Bcarr6]

I think probably at this point it'd make most sense to try and combine with GT Masters in some way. There really is little they can salvage that would be at a price point accessible to customer racing.

[Matt K]

DTM with GTE cars? Great idea. Will there be a lot of interest in it among teams? I'm afraid not so much. GTE programmes are not as omnipresent as GT3 ones, they still involve manufacturers and I doubt such a concept would provide a new, fresh start for DTM.
The thing is, DTM's formula sort of expired a few years ago. It relied heavily on three biggest German manufacturers but Mercedes' withdrawal should've been a signal to change things dramatically. With miserable R-Motorsport's efforts we've witnessed that DTM is absolutely unconceivable idea for teams and new manufacturers alike. DTM should've reinvented itself in 2017 when Mercedes announced their withdrawal. A new DTM should be something like Supercars - based on teams rather than manufacturers, with powerful, loud, exciting cars that are a few times cheaper than current ones. This could potentially lead to an increased interest because private teams (there are a lot of high-profile teams in Germany and around) would be interested and could afford it. Manufacturers could be present but their input would be smaller, something like GT3 racing or WTCR. More like factory drivers in factory-supported teams.

Even though I've been a huge fan of DTM, the series has always relied on almost the same 'foundation' or formula if you like, since 2000. If it hadn't been for a strong support from Audi, Mercedes, BMW and, for some time, Opel, DTM would've been dead for quite a number of years now. Or it would've been something way different. Because there is place for exciting touring car series in Europe (with base in Germany) - no one is doing such a thing because TCR and BTCC are much slower and GT3 relies on a typical GT format with driver changes and so on. But I think this potential of DTM has always been overlooked because of strong reliance on big manufacturers.

[Speed-King]

There might still be some hope for continuing with the current ruleset in 2021: https://www.motorsport-total.com/dtm...toren-20042803

According to the promoter of the Assen DTM round, Audi will continue to supply engines to private teams and there apparently are two teams (my guess: Abt and Phoenix) that plan on taking them up on that offer.

[IdealLine]

That might be possible for a year, but to what end? This year they were struggling to put together a 16 car grid, which is not nearly enough and it's certainly not going to be any better next year. Don't get me wrong, I really want to see DTM survive, and watch their racing, but I think it's time to move on from the current concept as soon as possible

[broadrun96]

GTE would be a nice idea but how many cars could they run?

Porsche-- obviously build cars for anyone who pays enough but I would guess limited numbers

Ferrari--build cars for anyone who asks but they don't pay to run anything, but they are convertible to GT3

Aston Martin-- similar to Ferrari but doubt there's any money left to help a team

BMW--only running their GTLM car now in IMSA

Corvette--not a real market for them and they VERY rarely sell cars

Plus the cars aren't cheap to buy or run. Sadly I think they would have to end up as a TCR or modded TCR car series. But it appears there's already that series in Germany so why another series?

[champcarman]

Using GTE cars could create something like the old GT1 Series that ran around 2010 when about 8 manufacturers were represented by 4 cars each. The format (in my opinion) killed that Series off' One hour races with a driver change didn't really seem to work. I think GTE cars would be cheaper than the current DTM cars but there are not a lot of manufacturers in GTE either..

[pablocomics]

I think that the best choice is get back to the origins and convert the categorie on a "sort of" Super-TCR.

-Big 4 door sedan
-Not to many changes from serial cars
-Heavy BOP
-Make the categorie as cheap as possible
-Short sprint races
-Make things easy for private specialist builders.
-If the brans are absolute Hybrid freaks, just let them keep the serial hybrid sistem, but nothing more.

They also need less dependance of brands, if the categorie is cheap enough the brands will came soon or later (like they did on TCR)

[Matt K]

I've also read the report at Motorsport Total and this gives some hope. Obviously, this wouldn't mean that DTM can carry on with their Class 1 and try and search for a new manufacturers because this is, sadly, utopian. But - this could provide some time and continuity beyond 2020 and this would be a perfect way to think of a 'completely new' DTM for 2022 that would rely on teams with some factory backing, on fast and exciting (maybe hybrid) cars that would be a lot cheaper than current cars.

[Sodemo]

I think the DTM really needs to have a good think about what it wants to be going forwards. If it wants manufacturer involvement, I think that will (sadly) mean adopting a more "eco friendly" engine solution and probably massively reduced costs too. If you dont go down that route, then you will probably need to make it even cheaper and just rely on indies to come and fill the grid, but with what? Whats the ruleset that is offering great racing, fast, powerful cars and is cheap to run?

I'll say it again, the best option that I can see, is if the ITR spoke with Lotti or the FIA or whomever sanctions these things and seek an amendment to the TCR rules to allow technical upgrades to be developed and sold to teams, like a TCR+, but even then, who is going to develop the expensive aero and chassis changes?

The more I think about the more I think the DTM is perhaps just not relevant now, at least in terms of car makers taking part.

[S griffin]

I like the idea of TCR+. DTM has been about high performance cars, but hey they are still tin tops, so making them look more like the road going car would do no harm in my book

[andy97]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I think the DTM really needs to have a good think about what it wants to be going forwards. If it wants manufacturer involvement, I think that will (sadly) mean adopting a more "eco friendly" engine solution and probably massively reduced costs too. If you dont go down that route, then you will probably need to make it even cheaper and just rely on indies to come and fill the grid, but with what? Whats the ruleset that is offering great racing, fast, powerful cars and is cheap to run? ....

The more I think about the more I think the DTM is perhaps just not relevant now, at least in terms of car makers taking part.

I think that DTM has been something of an anachronism for some time, and I think that they knew that, hence why they approached the Japanese for some form of shared architecture. It has been way too expensive and way too insular for some time.

The world has moved on, not least because of the eco agenda but because manufacturers involved in many tin top or GT type racing series have put their £€$¥ behind either one make series or GTE/3/4 or TCR type platforms.
DTM has a place but It is time to a) lower costs b) be more relevant and c) recognise the environmental requirements.
If it wants a unique place but retain manufacturer interest it could somehow clothe a Formula E drivetrain underneath similar silhouettes to the current cars or,
It could develop the Italian V8 Superstars theme with a modified TCR type philosophy adapted for the larger RWD cars or it could do something like that with some form of hybrid element shared with the forthcoming BTCC cars as well.

[winkle]

It will be sad to see the demise of the DTM series, really incredible cars. As someone heading towards mid 50s I despair at seeming to be herded in a direction towards bland sterile motorsport. For me motorsport should be loud, fast and with cars that push boundaries.

Hybrid and particularly electric motorsport fills me with dread, lets face it who's really excited about formula E?

I know its manufacturer led and about appealing to the public will the goal of selling more cars, but for me, I don't see the point of paying my money to see a large version of scalextric on a circuit. Motorsport is about skill, noise and presence, if this direction of travel continues how long is it before there is no drag racing, thundersaloons or nascar because its no longer relevant?