Fatality in ARCA

[Joe Fan]

Originally posted by full_throttle
Ohh come on Joe that does not fly. Your saying that a women is only promoted by looks. I say not look at Sarah Fisher.

Did you ever see Sarah Fisher in USAC? Granted that there are better drivers in USAC who haven't got promoted to the IRL but Sarah proved that she had the necessary car control and mental make-up to compete in the IRL.

[muggle not]

Ya know, this is kinda unbelievable. Singling out a female as to whether she is qualified or not to race. Does that tell you something.

[Burnsieold]

No kidding. I saw her race at the fairgrounds. I know the story behind what happened. I have been following her since last year. I have been saying ever since the first time I saw her race that she would be one to watch. She would do what Shawna couldn't do. And you know what? At that point and time I had never seen her up close. To be honest with you I at that time thought she was a lot older and looked alot worse. I know how bitter the guys were over her. It was in the Nashville media BIG TIME. She IS after all the first woman in history to lead the points in any NASCAR series, according to NASCAR. I have seen her drive upon multiple occasions in person and know she has what it takes. WHAT I DONT GET IS THIS>>> The accident is almost IDENTICAL to the one a year ago that killed Blaise. I don't remember hearing all this flying around after that. No one questioned if Kerry should of been there. And speaking of the people who move up from the Fairgrounds with out fully climbing the ranks, I can think of 4 or so right now that have done it. Look at Casey Atwood. Then there is Steadman and Bobby Jr, oh but I guess they are okay. Is it because they are male or is it because of their last names? OR is it because they have ability and talent? The Fairgrounds has historically given it drivers up straight to CTS, BGN and WC. It has been a proving grounds for many and to most enthusiast it is listed in the same catageory as Hickory. Alot of people consider them a lot higher ground than "Hill Brothers". They have been for many years looked at as a direct stepping stone to BGN.

[Moncada69]

Alright, you guys we need to let this rest a little. we do have to here from her and she will speak on this matter. I dont think it is a woman thing, i do however feel that it is an inexperiance thing, but how do you obtain super speedway experience. I think that this is what it comes down to it is harder to make an evasive move at high rates of speed, she may have been able to avoid this incident, if she had more experience, it is a racing accident! could it have been avoided we will never know, we can't do it again, if it had been a male driver would the same thing have happened ...we will never know, so lets just wait and see what NASCAR does......

[Joe Fan]

Originally posted by muggle not
Ya know, this is kinda unbelievable. Singling out a female as to whether she is qualified or not to race. Does that tell you something.

Well, nobody would be singling her our if it weren't for this accident that killed a driver when she didn't heed to the cautions light. The driver ahead of her seen the flashing yellow lights.

[Joe Fan]

Originally posted by Burnsie
WHAT I DONT GET IS THIS>>> The accident is almost IDENTICAL to the one a year ago that killed Blaise.

This is not true. Alexander hit the wall in the middle of the tri-oval and was killed instantly due to basilar skull fractures. Martin's crash was coming out of turn four and he had radioed that he was OK when his car came to a rest after the initial impact.

[TimD]

Joe, please be cautious. I have no axe to grind on this one. I don't know Debra Renshaw, I couldn't tell you what a late-model is, I haven't even got a clue what ARCA stands for...

But...

When you say that a driver "ignored cautions lights", that suggests intent, not negligence, and that is one almighty accusation. Unless you know for sure that was the intent, then it's an accusation too far, whether the driver is male or female, a first-drive rookie or Smokey Yunick. It's too big a call to stand.

[Joe Fan]

Originally posted by Moncada69
how do you obtain super speedway experience.

By moving up from Late Models to one of NASCAR's Touring Divisions like Tammy Jo Kirk and the vast majority of other drivers did. See: http://www.nascartouring.com/

In most of these series, you get race on half-mile tracks like she had run on before plus a few superspeedways, against other drivers who have similar experience. After showing your talent in abilities in one of these series, the next step up would be Winston West and ARCA. Perhaps the NASCAR Craftsman Truck Series if you have proven to really be a hotshoe.

[Joe Fan]

Originally posted by TimD
When you say that a driver "ignored cautions lights", that suggests intent, not negligence, and that is one almighty accusation.

True. Perhaps a better way to put is that she wasn't paying attention to the lights or what was in front of her. Her speed was estimated to be 160mph when she hit Martin. That is pretty much wide open coming out of that turn.

[RaceFanStan]

It was a "racing deal",
I think that the spotter may be to blame (if there is any blame to be placed).

This year Jeff Purvis was seriously injured in a Busch crash, Purvis hit the wall hard and slid down the track into the path of the oncoming cars,
Greg Biffle saw him too late to stop .....
Greg did a selfless thing, he turned his car hard to the left putting it into a slide, it was a brutal impact side to side .....
If Greg had not have turned his car to the left he would have hit Purvis headon into the driver's side .....
No doubt Greg spared Jeff's life that day and I have admired Greg Biffle ever since, until that day I didn't like Biffle but now I have a lot of respect for him .....
Jeff Purvis is still recovering from his injuries and he should thank Greg Biffle for his quick thinking and manuevering to "soften" the impact.

[Irene]

Why point fingers????

How do you know she ignored them or just wasn't paying attention? Were you in the car with her??? Could you read her mind??? I reallydont care what it implies her doing...have we heard from her??? I think we should before anyone of ya'll go pointing fingers or saying she didnt pay attention or ignored the lights! Why dont u think about being in her shoes for a half of a second knowing that she killed someone! I know it was a accident but her car hit him and he died. Isnt that enough???

Untill you walk in her shoes u have no Idea!!!

[Joe Fan]

Originally posted by Irene
Why point fingers????

How do you know she ignored them or just wasn't paying attention? Were you in the car with her??? Could you read her mind??? I reallydont care what it implies her doing...have we heard from her??? I think we should before anyone of ya'll go pointing fingers or saying she didnt pay attention or ignored the lights! Why dont u think about being in her shoes for a half of a second knowing that she killed someone! I know it was a accident but her car hit him and he died. Isnt that enough???

Untill you walk in her shoes u have no Idea!!!

Driver Shelby Howard, who was in front of Renshaw, said he seen the yellow lights come on and he was able to miss hitting Martin's car.

Experts say that after Martin's initial spin, he was hit by Renshaw 18 seconds later and 8 seconds after he came to a rest up against the outside retaining wall. Based upon an ARCA pole time of 29.6 seconds by Frank Kimmel earlier in the year at Lowes, she would have been entering Turn 1 or in the middle of Turn 1 and 2 when Martin initially spun. Consequently, the cautions lights would have been on at least when she entered Turn 3, definately as she came out of Turn 4 and probably on the backstretch.

Her speed was estimated to be 160mph when he hit Martin's car. This is pretty much full-tilt coming out of that turn, especially in a practice session environment.

Renshaw is now at home recuparting from her operation. Why haven't we heard her side of the story by now? Is she is remaining quiet on advice from an attourney as this could end up in a lawsuit?

[muggle not]

Tim D......Why not close the thread. Enough has been said on this subject. I am sorry that I started the subject. It does no one any good to continue.

[Irene]

I Agree!!

[Joe Fan]

I am against closing threads in general unless a thread turns into a exchange of barbs because a thread will die of natural causes when forum members don't have anything further to add.

At this point, there are a few more things to talk about like NASCAR's reaction to this incident by requiring spotters to be "up top" for all Busch Grand National and Winston Cup practices. A great idea but already being done for the most part.

Or the suggestion that a viewer wrote into RPM2night about having lights on the dashboard to alert drivers. A bad idea as the heat in the cockpit of a stockcar sometimes reaches 155+ degrees, which coupled with the vibration in these cars, make electrical components suspect. We commonly see ignitions fail and having a driver rely upon a light inside the car, as opposed to the lights around the track, could result in the lights failing and creating a false sense of security. The only reason why they work in open wheel cars is that the cockpits of these machines aren't subjected to the heat like they would be inside of a stockcar. This is probably an excellent reason why NASCAR could never really reach the technical level as Formula One cars that have automatic upshifting, tractiion and launch control built into their steering wheels.

Back to the original discussion, I see no reason for me or any other moderator to close this one, soley because a few posters don't agree or like what has been said, or feel that it is time end the discussion. Renshaw and her spotter are refusing to comment on the incident, other than offering their condolences to the Martin family. As a CBS Sportsline article affirms (http://cbs.sportsline.com/autoracing/story/5789101), "Renshaw and car owner Bob Schacht, also her spotter, have been unavailable for comment since the accident." They could clear the air and end speculation about the incident if they chose but they probably fear litigation. Their silence on the matter is not an encouraging sign if it was easily explainable.

As Bobby Labonte said in the same CBS Sportsline interview, "It takes about 30 seconds to run a lap here, so she was probably a half-lap away when he first wrecked. That's a good distance, and a long time not to know what's up ahead." Therefore I will be surprised if this is the last we have heard about this incident as there was a breakdown or breakdowns in the system somewhere. I don't think this one can be swept under the rug when it involved a death to a driver.

[muggle not]

There will be no further comment on the subject by me!

[RaceFanStan]

Originally posted by TimD :
"Renshaw and car owner Bob Schacht, also her spotter, have been unavailable for comment since the accident."
They could clear the air and end speculation about the incident if they chose but they probably fear litigation. Their silence on the matter is not an encouraging sign if it was easily explainable.

I agree that their silence makes me curious,
Being sorry is good but we would like to know WHY it happened,
Was it spotter's silence or worse yet Deborah's arrogance.
Their silence tells me that possibly they are covering up an important fact.
I would like to know what really happened.

[TimD]

STAN!!!!

Check your facts. I said not one blasted word of what you just ascribed to me.

[muggle not]

OK, I broke my word, but the reason I requested the thread closed is that some of the posts are becoming "sexist" in content and that has no place here.

[Joe Fan]

Originally posted by muggle not
OK, I broke my word, but the reason I requested the thread closed is that some of the posts are becoming "sexist" in content and that has no place here.

I don't see anything sexist about the content in this thread. Whether you are a man or woman in the spotlight, the door of praise and criticism swings both ways. You had posted several threads about the disqualification of Renshaw that Mark Day organized at Nashville a while back and there were some sexist comments on one of those threads.

What Day did was chickensh*t, I didn't agree with it but many people assumed that Day was a male chauvinist pig who was simply jealous because Renshaw was successful woman driver. It appears to be the case but how do we really know for sure? Does anyone here personally know Day, or what his thoughts deep down really are? Has anyone ever overheard him make sexist comments?

His comments of him feeling unsafe racing against her and his opinion that she was a bad driver were immediately discounted by most as based on chauvinism. But male drivers have said the same thing about other male drivers. This incident at Lowes doesn't aid her cause and you have to wonder why drivers would team up on another to attempt to get someone disqualifed. For the most part, if you respect others and are an agreeable type personality, stuff like this won't happen to you. Jealousy could be a reason but jealousy is not confined by one sex on the opposite sex. Will this unfairly set a precedent for other male drivers in the future who criticize a woman driver's driving or ask for their engine to be inspected, that they will be cast as male chavinist pigs or jealous of a woman driver's success? There have been other woman drivers in stock car racing, was this ever pulled on them?

Teaming up by drivers to potentially get another disqualifed has been pulled by male drivers on other male drivers in the past but since it involved a woman driver, it got national publicity. Day and the other drivers believed her engines weren't legal and under inspection, it was found with a very minor infraction. It shouldn't have amounted to a hill of beans but he got his due when he was disqualifed after event later on in the season.

However, the bottom line is many people may need to look inwardly at themselves and not jump to the easy conclusion about someone else's motivations or make assumptions about their beliefs. If you don't, how much better are you than the individual who is actually sexist or racist?

[Joe Fan]

OK, now we are getting some answers. An update that sheds light on this situation.

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlot...ts/4315572.htm

[muggle not]

This is old stuff that has been discussed before and 90% of the posts recognized Mark Day as being sexist. There was very little doubt about his motives.

Read Marlins comments on the accident:
http://www.tennessean.com/sports/mot...nt_ID=23835988

[Joe Fan]

Originally posted by muggle not
This is old stuff that has been discussed before and 90% of the posts recognized Mark Day as being sexist.

But what do they base this on? Did he make any sexist comments anytime in the past? Does public opinion automatically nail someone intentions and character? Nobody can get inside of Day's head and know exactly what he believes. The people he is closest to would be the best judges. So you have to take what he did at face value--it was a chickensh*t thing to do but racing is a highly competitive sport and chickensh*t things like this have been done before. To take the next step and judge him as sexist is doing the almost same thing that sexist people do--making assumptions, generalizations and judgements based upon beliefs.

[RaceFanStan]

Originally posted by TimD
STAN!!!!

Check your facts. I said not one blasted word of what you just ascribed to me.

You are right TimD, my bad.
Joe Fan posted the comments that I refered to.

[Irene]

I think this is a loss cause!

Ya'll belive what u want and we are going to believe what we want..so why keep going on about it!

U know instead of thikning bad of her because she is being quiet how bout thinking that she herself is having a problem dealing with the facts! She DID hit him....and that killed him. No matter whos fault it is she has tob e having a hard time..give her some time. As for her spotter he probably feels at fault to. Maybe they are being told to be quiet. But ur not there to know why! So why jump to conclusions!