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14 Mar 2011, 11:57 (Ref:2845405) | #1 | ||
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The right oil for older gearboxes?
After trouble with two of my GM Muncie 4 speed gearboxes, one at Snetterton recently when the 3rd and 4th gears started baulking prompted me to do some research and I came across this on the Chevelle forum and thought it may also be of interest to racers of older cars as I am sure its not unique to the Muncie gearbox. I thought I may share this with you although I did discuss it on Deltas Tea Break page I feel is deserves a wider audiance. In much the same wasy as some modern engine oils will not suit older cars it appears the same is true with some transmissions and is worth noting.
REDLINE Synthetic Manual Transmission Lubricants GEAR AND SYNCHRONIZER WEAR PROTECTION Most manufacturers of manual transmissions and transaxles recommend an 80W or 90W GL-4 lubricant. GL-5 gears oils which are required in hypoid differentials are not used in most synchromesh transmissions because the chemicals used to provide the extreme pressure protection can be corrosive to synchronizers, which are commonly made of brass or bronze. Typically, the use of a GL-5 lubricant in a synchromesh transmission will shorten the synchronizer life by one half. The extreme pressure requirements of spur gears and helical gears found in transmissions are not nearly as great as found in rear-wheel drive differentials. A GL-4 lubricant provides adequate protection for most manual transmissions, unless a unique design consideration requires the extra protection of a GL-5. The reason that many manufacturers have made recommendations of motor oils or ATFs is that petroleum 80W gear oils frequently do not shift well at low temperatures. Motor oils and ATFs are much more fluid at lower temperatures and they are not corrosive toward synchros, but they provide very poor gear protection. These lubricants provide almost no extreme-pressure protection. In addition, petroleum multigrade motor oils and ATFs have very poor shear stability. The shearing action by a manual transmission on thickeners is much worse than in an engine or automatic transmission. Within 5,000 miles the thickeners can be rendered ineffective and the transmission will be operating on a much reduced level of protection, as shown in the graph below. In hot weather these transmissions will whine and rattle because of poor vibration dampening and metal contact. Red Line MTL and MT-90 provide the excellent gear protection of a GL-4 gear oil in a synthetic lubricant which spans hot and cold temperatures and will not shear or oxidize with use. DIRECTIONS FOR USE Red Line MTL may be used in transmissions which recommend 75W, 80W, or 85W GL-4 gear oils, or SAE 30 or 5W/10W30 motor oils. If a 90W GL-4 or SAE 40, 10W40, or 15W40 is required, MT-90 may be used. If the transmission or transaxle requires an SAE 90 GL-5 gear oil, then Red Line 75W90NS or 75W140NS Gear Oil may be used. In transmissions which recommend Dexron or Mercon fluids we recommend our D4 ATF which is very similar to the MTL, being a GL-4 Gear Oil also. The D4 ATF will provide better low-temperature shiftability, and the MTL would provide better wear protection for racing use. MTL is not designed for use in rear-wheel drive differentials. Those generally require a GL-5 lubricant such as Red Line 75W90 Gear Oil. It is not necessary to flush the transmission before replacing with MTL. Remove the drain plug and drain while warm. Seal compatibility has been designed to be similar to petroleum lubricants, and leakage should be no greater than any other oil of comparable viscosity. Being formulated with extremely stable synthetic basestocks, MTL and MT-90 will last much longer than conventional petroleum lubricants. However, we do not recommend extended drain intervals, since without a filtration system, there is no way to remove metal shavings other than draining the lubricant. The regular maintenance intervals are also recommended to insure that the proper level of the fluid is maintained. Red Line Oil's MTL and MT-90 are designed to provide excellent protection and improved shiftability for manual transmissions and transaxles, having cured the problem of hard shifting in thousands of transmissions with shifting troubles. How? They have the appropriate coefficient of friction for most manual transmission synchronizers (many gear oils, engine oils, and ATFs are too slippery for proper synchro engagement). And, the wide viscosity of MTL and MT-90 allow proper shifting over the entire temperature range which the transmission will experience. The synthetic base oils used have a very high viscosity index which provides relatively constant viscosity as temperature changes. MTL is a low 70W at very low temperatures and a high 80W, nearly an 85W, at elevated temperatures, providing adequate viscosity to prevent wear and deaden gear noise. MT-90 is a thicker 75W90 version of MTL. The shear stability and oxidation stability of these products are excellent, thus the physical characteristics of Red Line MTL and MT-90 will change little with use. MTL MT-90 The MT-90 is a 75W90 GL-4 Gear Oil that’s slightly heavier than MTL. Provides excellent protection of gears and synchronizers and its balanced slipperiness provides a perfect coefficient of friction, allowing easier shifting. RED LINE SYNTHETIC OIL CORP. 6100 Egret Court Benicia, CA 94510 (707) 745-6100 www.redlineoil.com |
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14 Mar 2011, 14:26 (Ref:2845532) | #2 | ||
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Just ring Jason or Mark 01440 760960 at Motul and they will sort correct oil.
They have new product for Historics. |
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john ruston |
14 Mar 2011, 16:40 (Ref:2845629) | #3 | ||
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Beat me to it John,Al,do yourself a favor and follow Johns advice,we ran both Griff's on Motul,never ever gave a problem through insufficient lubrication or breakdown.
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Living the dream,Chief instruktor and racing on the worlds best circuits-The Nordschleife and Spa.Getting to drive the worlds best cars-someone has to do it, so glad its me. |
14 Mar 2011, 17:05 (Ref:2845652) | #4 | |
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Harry survived blistering temperatures on Motul at LMC as well, thats an old synchro box . . . and an old push rod motor. THe open diff ran the same as the gearbox as well.
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14 Mar 2011, 18:06 (Ref:2845682) | #5 | ||
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Who is harry? I thought it was Rob Compton who owned Harry!
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14 Mar 2011, 18:07 (Ref:2845684) | #6 | |
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Harry the Funbeam . . .come on Al, get with the program!
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14 Mar 2011, 18:44 (Ref:2845704) | #7 | ||
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Difficult sometimes to get correct advice from manufacturers or retailers- lack of knowledge of older stuff can seem to be a problem. Like a lot of machinery, I guess 'which oil?' can depend on how long you need it to last between rebuilds?
Recommending a brand is OK but most make several different oils- synth or not. As an example I tried two different synthetic from same supplier (not Motul) in a straight-cut MGB gearbox (on their advice) before reverting to good old 20W50- which I think is what the road cars use. Synchro wouldn't function on synthetic. The ubiquitous ZF as used in 70s Ford race and rally cars also appears to work best on cheap stuff- 15W40 in it's case- even when coping with 250bhp. Would be interesting to know if a GAA engined Capri requires anything different. As a complete opposite, when the Moss-box Meister rebuilt the unit out of my Plus 4 I was told to run Red Line 'Heavy Shockproof' fully synthetic in it, which I do. This equates, according to their data, to a 75W250 oil! So far the only complaint I have is the cost. (And if it gets on your race suit, which is likely in a Morgan, it doesn't wash out!) On the whole my rule of thumb is old fashioned oils in old fashioned gearboxes, but obviously not always! |
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14 Mar 2011, 22:12 (Ref:2845836) | #8 | ||
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So try Motul.They are only down the road from you!
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john ruston |
15 Mar 2011, 08:59 (Ref:2846005) | #9 | ||
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After a few disapointments,I switched from Red Line over to Motul,like to use the same brand in Engine, G/Box and Axle. Scew Gear on the Cam/Oil Pump shaws no sign of ware using Motul,never had problems with Gear selection/synchro hubs or gears.Likewise for the Axle. I wont use anything else,expensive? not as much as a rebuild though.
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Living the dream,Chief instruktor and racing on the worlds best circuits-The Nordschleife and Spa.Getting to drive the worlds best cars-someone has to do it, so glad its me. |
15 Mar 2011, 09:58 (Ref:2846037) | #10 | ||
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I do use various Motul oils- only use other stuff in Moss gearbox. Tend to ask engine or gearbox builders what they want me to use. Then if it goes wrong after expensive build / rebuild at least they can't blame me for using wrong oil! Engines with skew gears for ancilliaries are well suited to 300V and that is what I run.......
BTW is this thread a tenths version of 'product placement' Last edited by Mike Bell; 15 Mar 2011 at 10:06. |
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15 Mar 2011, 10:25 (Ref:2846050) | #11 | ||
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No not at all Mike, I only quoted the Redline article as it was specifically about using GL5 oils with LSD additives and the harm they can do in older type boxes with brass sychros. I am certain sure manufactures like Millers and Motul have equivilances and the theory is the same, it least the Redline article may give guys the knowledge to know what to ask for whoever they finally purchase from. as I said I have purchased two literes of Halfords own brand GL4 spec oil for mine and I feel confident its probably suitable. BTW talking of Halfords own brands have you seen their 20/50 for older cars, its like the old green Uniroyal stuff and looks ok to me I did use it when I was running a flat tappet engine.
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15 Mar 2011, 10:45 (Ref:2846066) | #12 | ||
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For what it is worth I use Red Line Heavy Shockproof in the 3 synch B box in the Grantura. Seems to work a treat. Box was stripped after about 15 hours to check over and it was mint condition. No problems with gear selection and it still feels like new after a full season.
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15 Mar 2011, 11:14 (Ref:2846080) | #13 | ||
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I'm aware that this thread sounds a bit like 'product placement' but neither Redline nor Motul instigated this, and I don't have a problem with anyone disclosing what works for them. At the end of the day if advice given on here saves wear and/or failure and therefore reduces an individual's cost to go historic motor racing, it has to be a good thing. On the other hand neither this site nor our posters can accept responsibility for anyone taking advice which ultimately fails to succeed, as it is only a matter of opinion expressed by posters from their own experiences.
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15 Mar 2011, 12:21 (Ref:2846115) | #14 | |||
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Quote:
I heard the recent announcement that BBC were going to introduce it. Few days later listening to R2 the multiple Ferrari owner starting going on about Subway (sandwiches) mentioning the name many times before then introducing McD into the conversation as well. (Turns out they share parent company.) Still don't know if that was product placement or not!!!! |
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15 Mar 2011, 13:24 (Ref:2846160) | #15 | |||
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Quote:
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Living the dream,Chief instruktor and racing on the worlds best circuits-The Nordschleife and Spa.Getting to drive the worlds best cars-someone has to do it, so glad its me. |
15 Mar 2011, 14:01 (Ref:2846179) | #16 | |||
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Quote:
Regards Jim |
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15 Mar 2011, 16:14 (Ref:2846255) | #17 | |||
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Glad to hear it though, but makes me wonder how long a conversation on the radio about one particular make or retailer has to go before it oversteps the mark! |
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4 Apr 2011, 07:42 (Ref:2858405) | #18 | ||
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I have pulled the box out of the car that was playing up and thought may have been down to the oil, it wasnt! As soon as I removed the side cover I immediately spotted the problem why the box wouldn't shift correctly into 3rd and 4th, the little dentine slipper plates on the 3rd/4th synchro hub were missing and the hub was not being locked in but being held in gear by the selectors only. Anyone ever seen that happen before there didnt appear to be any further damage whatsoever and why would they slip out?
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4 Apr 2011, 13:47 (Ref:2858582) | #19 | |||
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Quote:
Isn't that Chewing Gum? |
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Living the dream,Chief instruktor and racing on the worlds best circuits-The Nordschleife and Spa.Getting to drive the worlds best cars-someone has to do it, so glad its me. |
4 Apr 2011, 14:03 (Ref:2858591) | #20 | ||
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yeah detent (I think) sorry I wish I was as bright as you Terence
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4 Apr 2011, 14:41 (Ref:2858609) | #21 | ||
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did they just slip out or did they age, break in two then slip out?
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4 Apr 2011, 18:33 (Ref:2858744) | #22 | ||
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I am not sure as havnt checked yet, i was doing some fast changing around the new 300. I recon one may have brck taken the tension away from the others and they may have slipped out.
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