Front-Wheel Drive Cars...

[Dragger]

Over the years I've developed an absolute hatred for front-wheel drive cars. The only reasons they exist today is because they are cheaper to build than rear/all-wheel drive cars and have a slight MPG advantage. I just find it hard to be passionate over any FWD car and would never consider any FWD car as a sports car.

The front tires are severely over worked. They handle 100% of the acceleration, 100% of the steering, 75% of the braking, and carry 60-66% of the car's weight. They're severly off balance and suffer from ill handling with gross understeer.

I'm not saying you can't modify a FWD car to race or handle better, but pound for pound, dollar for dollar, road or track, stock or modified, RWD/AWD are the way to go. I've owned 2 FWD cars and will never own another.

[garcon]

Most cars in Europe are fwd. Initially it was entirely cost based, but these days it's more and more because drivers don't know how to handle a rwd car.

Suspension and drivetrain technology has improved hugely in recent years, so it is possible to get excellent handling fwd performance cars with anything up to around 300bhp.

But from a personal taste point of view I do tend to agree - the last fwd car I owned was 15 years ago, a Nissan Primera GT, the best handling fwd saloon available at the time.

[JHamilton]

So you hate FWD or do you hate Toyonda Camcords?

[terence]

Try a Renault Megane Coupe RS,best handling fwd ever.

[garcon]

I had a Chrysler 300M as a hire car once. So I can understand why Americans might hate front wheel drive.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by garcon

Most cars in Europe are fwd. Initially it was entirely cost based, but these days it's more and more because drivers don't know how to handle a rwd car.

Suspension and drivetrain technology has improved hugely in recent years, so it is possible to get excellent handling fwd performance cars with anything up to around 300bhp.

I pretty much agree with all of this.

With the exception of BMW and Mercedes, all of the major manufacturers in Europe and Asia are pretty much exclusively FWD these days. As garcon has said this is more to do with safety than cost of production. What a lot of people also don't know is that the handling characteristics of newer BMWs and Mercs are also biased towards understeer rather than oversteer... again for safety reasons. I have a pair of E46s... a 325Ci Sport and a 325i Sport and it's more difficult than you'd imagine to pitch them into oversteer, almost impossible if you've got DSC on.

[auroan]

Originally Posted by Dragger

Over the years I've developed an absolute hatred for front-wheel drive cars. The only reasons they exist today is because they are cheaper to build than rear/all-wheel drive cars and have a slight MPG advantage. I just find it hard to be passionate over any FWD car and would never consider any FWD car as a sports car.

The front tires are severely over worked. They handle 100% of the acceleration, 100% of the steering, 75% of the braking, and carry 60-66% of the car's weight. They're severly off balance and suffer from ill handling with gross understeer.

I'm not saying you can't modify a FWD car to race or handle better, but pound for pound, dollar for dollar, road or track, stock or modified, RWD/AWD are the way to go. I've owned 2 FWD cars and will never own another.

Interesting..... using BTCC as an example (as both FWD and RWD cars can race together equally) Since 1997 the FWD cars have one more championships 16 to RWD's 1

WTCC .... 6 FWD to 3 RWD.

[garcon]

How many of those 17 years were there no RWD entrants?

I reckon they'd win every year if they weren't so heavily penalised.

[GORDON STREETER]

Having learning to drive in a RWD vehicle and raced mostly in the same I think the jury is out on this one IMHO.
95% of the cars that I work on and use for my daily drivers are FWD and when the chips are down as in snow and mud a front driver is better than RWD (obviously a 4x4 is better) simply because of the weight over the driven wheels the car follows the steering angle as its being pulled rather than pushed.
Like it or not I can't see RWD ever making a comeback

[Dragger]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

So you hate FWD or do you hate Toyonda Camcords?

I just hate FWD cars.

Manufacturers love to make so many because they are cheaper to make. A huge majority of drivers have no idea the difference or just don't care, so the market is over saturated with them.

[Dragger]

Originally Posted by auroan

Interesting..... using BTCC as an example (as both FWD and RWD cars can race together equally) Since 1997 the FWD cars have one more championships 16 to RWD's 1

WTCC .... 6 FWD to 3 RWD.

They do NOT race equally.

Apples to oranges. Following that logic, all, and I mean ALL of the world's racetracks have lap records held by RWD/AWD cars.

Pound for pound, HP for HP, RWD/AWD will always be a far better platform for performance. It's basic physics.

Balance is one of the most important variables in handling. 60-65% of the car's weight over the front? Horrible. Same as a pick-up truck. Having the front tires handle 100% of the steering AND 100% acceleration ruins the drive off corners, reducing the amount of speed down each straight. You can tune out some of the understeer, but it will not accelerate off of a corner as well as a RWD/AWD car.

[Dragger]

Here's an interesting comparison, factory stock street cars currently in production on the same track:

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...o-2013-page-10

The Subaru BRZ and Honda Civic Si coupe have similar power, power delivery, weight, etc... The BRZ is 6 seconds a lap faster than the Si.


AND...

Fastest RWD car? 2:45
Fastest FWD car? 3:14 in 100th place.


THAT is why there has never been a FWD sportscar and never will be.

[terence]

Again,I suggest you try the Renault Megane RS Coupe. Its the fastest FWD around the Nurburgring,getting the power down much earlier than RWD,one of the areas fwd scores highly on. I personally prefer rwd,having been brought up on it.

[Dragger]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Again,I suggest you try the Renault Megane RS Coupe. Its the fastest FWD around the Nurburgring,getting the power down much earlier than RWD,one of the areas fwd scores highly on. I personally prefer rwd,having been brought up on it.

I've already posted tons of facts, what I can't do is buy a Renault. Not Imported to the U.S. anymore.

As far as getting power down earlier? No, the front tires are already maxxed out steering the car. Applying power to them only causes the car to push more.

[garcon]

I know we're all equals on the internet and all that, but you might want to ask a bit more about someone's experience before disagreeing with them.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Dragger

THAT is why there has never been a FWD sportscar and never will be.

Lotus M100.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by terence bower

I personally prefer rwd,having been brought up on it.

Same here Terry, You can take far more liberties with fwd but I still can't get my head around accelerating harder when you get oversteer in an fwd car.
On the road however I don't notice any difference between front and rear wheel drive but then my days of street racing are long gone so for me It's a non issue

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by davyboy

I have a pair of E46s... a 325Ci Sport and a 325i Sport and it's more difficult than you'd imagine to pitch them into oversteer, almost impossible if you've got DSC on.

Not trying hard enough. My 320D will definitely hang the tail out when required. Especially with the DSC off, but to me that system only helps control it and bring it back if you really overdo it. Sure, it won't power oversteer by spinning the wheels up, but that's only wasting petrol and rubber anyway.

But I do agree, I've spent years avoiding FWD even to the extent of owning a Volvo 340!

[Dragger]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

Lotus M100.

The Elan? Lotus' worst handling car was a sales flop for a reason. I wouldn't even consider it a sports car for the same reason it didn't sell well: FWD The Miata came out around the same time, similar power, but it was RWD. Even though it was a Japanese car imitating a British niche the Miata handled better and sold a hulluva lot more.

A small light convertible can be sporty, but that doesn't equal true sport car. The Smart fourtwo is a small convertible, not a sports car even with RWD.

[Adam43]

Do you mean the fortwo or the roadster?

[Dragger]

Originally Posted by garcon

I know we're all equals on the internet and all that, but you might want to ask a bit more about someone's experience before disagreeing with them.

Which has no effect in basic physics.

[Dragger]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Do you mean the fortwo or the roadster?

The fourtwo in the U.S. has a small retractible top.

[pigs fly]

DRAGGER suggest you look at Aussie Holden Commodore importedinto US as a Chevy ss 5litre V8 RWD and if your into Nascar current shaped Chevies are based on them.

[terence]

Originally Posted by Dragger

I've already posted tons of facts, what I can't do is buy a Renault. Not Imported to the U.S. anymore.

As far as getting power down earlier? No, the front tires are already maxxed out steering the car. Applying power to them only causes the car to push more.

Definitely not the technique to use,if it washing out/understeering pushing on,A] You got it wrong to start with.B] Drop a gear,or two,and floor it,it will STILL pull round.


We tend to get rather a lot of Americans come to sample the delights of driving in a particular spot in Germany,so was aware of Renault not being available.Am also aware of [sorry to say this] rather poor driving abilities displayed by most Americans. NOT a dig simply stating a fact.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Dragger

The fourtwo in the U.S. has a small retractible top.

Isn't it called the fortwo because it is for two? It seems you mean the normal smart. For interest they come with a proper tin roof and the one with the retractable roof around the world.

There was a little roadster too (and even a coupe roadster -odd name). These were a hoot. Kind of a modern MG midget. It could be well balanced. Although there was a fun characteristic from the gear change. Pushing on it would tend to have a whisker of understeer., but when it changed up the weight shifted to the front wheels and whoa! Far from ideal, but it didn't diminish the fun.

These are worth quite a bit now as they were discontinued and a little following had developed.

It isn't my idea of a natural sportscar - a silly little thing surely - but for me it demonstrates how with cars it is silly to just compartmentalise. I know these generalisations can make trying to understand a complex subject simple, but it is the crossovers, the things that deviate from the norm that are interesting to discuss. Unless you want to just dismiss others opinion. If your going to do that, why start a discussion in the first place?

Originally Posted by terence bower

Am also aware of [sorry to say this] rather poor driving abilities displayed by most Americans. NOT a dig simply stating a fact.

Talking of generalisations