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Old 22 May 2018, 17:54 (Ref:3824008)   #1776
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There always has been overtaking in Indycars. Yes, strategy is involved, but so are most races that last over an hour, including F1. Overtaking happens like it should in Indycars
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Old 22 May 2018, 23:17 (Ref:3824105)   #1777
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Chilibowl, while I think even as things are, some tracks would definitely benefit from some adjustments in their layouts, the major redesign I was thinking of as being much more pertinent in the event of drastic downforce reduction.

I'm not totally against some more minor reduction in downforce, but by far my greater concern is that the downforce made is made more efficiently, that is, while producing proportionally less drag. So, for instance, if current cars are at a 2.5:1 L/D, finding ways to bring that up to, say, 3.0:1. No, I don't think any of us knows the precise figures of current F1 cars; this is just as an illustration.

And yes, I also think homogeneity of car and driver performance characteristics is definitely a real potential contributor to difficulty in overtaking, regardless of series.

I'm not necessarily against active suspension. Honestly, it might be less of an advantage now than in the 1980s and '90s, since the circuits are generally smoother. On the other hand, it would be another area where teams with lesser resources could also be left behind. Then again, it could also be a more productive avenue than just aero to make some gains.

Movable aero is a tricky thing. Probably the most amusing way to get an idea of the issues that can arise is to watch the highlights program of the 1966 Can-Am race from Stardust, which was outside Las Vegas at the time. So aside from budgetary issues, you can have some real problems with the behavior of the car if things go wrong. In the example I just mentioned, both Chaparral 2Es had their high-mounted rear wings basically just go haywire, uncontrollably going back and forth from high- to low-fownforce position in rapid-fire fashion. And we've already seen the occasional instance of the DRS flap not functioning properly, or at all. We also had an overall, system-level failure occur at Baku this year.
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Old 23 May 2018, 01:51 (Ref:3824111)   #1778
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From a development point of view using F1 to develop active suspensions would be far more productive for the R&D of the auto industry than wind tunnels and multiple wingy thingys surely?
While there seems to be concerted, cost based pressure to dump the MGUH this seems to be against the wishes of the existing PU manufacturers. (Spain Friday press conference) I would suggest that writing off the cost of operating huge aero computer analysis and wind tunnel costs could be seen as acceptable if research into areas more related to the real world was allowed in lieu.

Any thoughts on the effects of a change to active suspension partnered with the " push to pass" effect of additional stored electrical energy?
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Old 23 May 2018, 03:01 (Ref:3824117)   #1779
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The simple reason they go for aero is that it has a higher yield in terms of speed gained. In particular, drag works against you if you just keep adding power, and on an exponential curve, not a linear one. Downforce works with you on that exponential curve as you go faster, however. And I don't think suspension alone is going to give anything like the advancement in speed that aero does.

Also, much of the development in the auto industry is increasingly tied to taking the driver more and more out of the driving equation, which is antithetical to the basic premise of motorsports. At some stage, the two may well reach a divergence point.
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Old 23 May 2018, 05:17 (Ref:3824122)   #1780
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Also, much of the development in the auto industry is increasingly tied to taking the driver more and more out of the driving equation, which is antithetical to the basic premise of motorsports. At some stage, the two may well reach a divergence point.

This is where we get a divergence in the interest of manufacturers and the sport as well. Development of active suspension almost by definition moves control from driver to system. That of course is the central feature of development of autonomous vehicles.
Perhaps in the end we are looking at motorsport going the way of horse racing in being a sport primarily run for betting with the advancement of the breed and the spectacle being supplementary.


Sorry, we are getting much further off topic, although maybe that trend will start to dictate where future races are held.
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Old 24 May 2018, 05:53 (Ref:3824339)   #1781
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Skip off Argentina - the country has no money to host a GP againn.
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Old 24 May 2018, 14:46 (Ref:3824407)   #1782
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Old 25 May 2018, 00:19 (Ref:3824485)   #1783
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Skip off Argentina - the country has no money to host a GP againn.

I am not that sure. The Argentinians wouldn't spend energy and money to fly over Charlie boy if they were not confident to gather those Liberty dollars.
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Old 25 May 2018, 14:35 (Ref:3824571)   #1784
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The problem is the state budget. They have a massive deficit. They shouldn't be paying for a Tilkedrome.
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Old 26 May 2018, 09:33 (Ref:3824728)   #1785
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I wonder what are the 40 places for potential new GPs?
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Old 27 May 2018, 21:07 (Ref:3825103)   #1786
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I wonder what are the 40 places for potential new GPs?
Write a list of 'Destination Cities' and Middle East & Asian nations not currently holding a race and you'll quickly get there!
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Old 27 May 2018, 21:21 (Ref:3825107)   #1787
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I wonder what are the 40 places for potential new GPs?
How many GPs a year is F1 planning to hold?
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Old 28 May 2018, 06:03 (Ref:3825143)   #1788
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How many GPs a year is F1 planning to hold?
I think 25 was mentioned?
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Old 31 May 2018, 07:51 (Ref:3825814)   #1789
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Hope Argentina won't be considered - the country is not in a mood to host a GP.
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Old 31 May 2018, 08:19 (Ref:3825818)   #1790
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I think Argentina might be a few years away, who knows?
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Old 31 May 2018, 16:29 (Ref:3825892)   #1791
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I think Argentina might be a few years away, who knows?
A country with a long history of racing back to the days of Fangio & GonsalezI remember a 4 week F3 Temporada at one time
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Old 5 Jun 2018, 15:29 (Ref:3826967)   #1792
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Wolff's comments on hosting fees not being sustainable.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/g...cedes-1044152/

hardley breaking news but there was a bit of a throw away line in the article that i am curious about.

'The new event in Miami will not be based on the traditional model of a promoter paying a large fee that escalates in future years, but will instead be run with a revenue and risk sharing model, with F1 in effect taking a share of gate and hospitality income.'

on one hand i thought FOM already took all of the trackside advertising and (possibly) all or a large chunk of the hospitality income but on the other hand if they (unlike in the BE era) give the venues more of a break/quid pro quo on sanctioning fees then thats a good thing.

another more cynical way to look at it, however, is if they lower the sanctioning fees then do we run the risk of more places trying to get in and a 25 race calendar starts looking more like a reality.
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Old 5 Jun 2018, 16:20 (Ref:3826974)   #1793
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Here's an interesting take on future grand prix, ironically from Hermann Tilke, no less.

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/136530
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Old 5 Jun 2018, 18:07 (Ref:3826996)   #1794
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Here's an interesting take on future grand prix, ironically from Hermann Tilke, no less.

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/136530
Very interesting indeed. Here's the key quote:
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"We are not building [permanent] tracks only for the high professional drivers, we are also building tracks for all kind of drivers," Tilke said at the FIA Sport Conference in the Philippines on Tuesday.

"This means amateur drivers, it means a driver who is 60 years old and wishes to drive some kind of racing car or high-performance car. All these people have to be safe [on permanent tracks], it is not only F1.

Yet seemingly paradoxically it's F1 and F1 only that requires the highest FIA safety rating.
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Old 5 Jun 2018, 18:49 (Ref:3827011)   #1795
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Yet seemingly paradoxically it's F1 and F1 only that requires the highest FIA safety rating.
So I read that article and I am slightly confused by what the conclusion is supposed to be. Especially with respect to the design choices made for permanent vs. temporary tracks.

My perspective is that the permanent tracks have to be suitable to support a variety of types of events. Including amateur (or even lesser pro) events in which hard walls with limited run off would be unacceptable. For example here in the US, it would likely be difficult from a liability perspective if the track was less safe than it could be. Also, (speculation on my part) is that those running circuits are more likely to want something like long run-off areas vs impact absorption devices due to cost (i.e. is cheaper for "Joe Amateur" to slow down and get stuck in a sand trap than to have him destroy an expensive one time use barrier.

I take what Tilke says to be that they don't have to worry about that "as much" for temporary circuits that are effectively geared toward a single event per year (or weekend of events). So temporary circuits can be made more challenging (aka dangerous).

As to F1 requiring the "highest safety rating", I assume that means FIA 1 license tracks. Clearly if Monaco is able to get a "1" without extensive use of "run off", then "run off" is not a hard requirement (as you might think given what we see in new purpose built "1" tracks). I mean Monaco has runoff in some strategic places, but for the most part it is just hard barriers everywhere.

I would love to know how the FIA track license/grading system works, but I have read that what differentiates a "1" vs. a "2" is as much other ancillary things (various facility stuff such as medical center, lighting, equipment, etc.) as it is pure track safety.

Regarding how FIA rates circuits, the best link I can find is here...

https://www.fia.com/circuit-safety

Which does not explicitly say how they define the boundaries between licenses/grades. I suspect it is a highly subjective evaluation so they probably don't want hard rules defined on paper. Again... Monaco being a prime example of if hard rules existed, they would likely require being bent to ensure the race continues. Nobody wants to be responsible for creating the rule that stops racing at Monaco.

Richard
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Old 5 Jun 2018, 18:56 (Ref:3827013)   #1796
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Yet seemingly paradoxically it's F1 and F1 only that requires the highest FIA safety rating.
Whilst that is true that only F1 requires it, most amateur series that have powerful cars use them anyway.

WEC (LMP2 and GTE-Am have Am drivers) is all Grade 1 except Le Mans (which is Grade 2 purely on length) and Sebring.
ELMS - Paul Ricard, Monza, Red Bull Ring, Silverstone, Spa, Portimao
Le Mans Cup - See above
Blancpain Endurance - Monza, Silverstone, Paul Ricard, Spa, Barcelona

F1 requires it, but everyone does use them anyway.
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Old 5 Jun 2018, 22:27 (Ref:3827040)   #1797
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So I read that article and I am slightly confused by what the conclusion is supposed to be. Especially with respect to the design choices made for permanent vs. temporary tracks.

My perspective is that the permanent tracks have to be suitable to support a variety of types of events. Including amateur (or even lesser pro) events in which hard walls with limited run off would be unacceptable. For example here in the US, it would likely be difficult from a liability perspective if the track was less safe than it could be. Also, (speculation on my part) is that those running circuits are more likely to want something like long run-off areas vs impact absorption devices due to cost (i.e. is cheaper for "Joe Amateur" to slow down and get stuck in a sand trap than to have him destroy an expensive one time use barrier.

I take what Tilke says to be that they don't have to worry about that "as much" for temporary circuits that are effectively geared toward a single event per year (or weekend of events). So temporary circuits can be made more challenging (aka dangerous).

As to F1 requiring the "highest safety rating", I assume that means FIA 1 license tracks. Clearly if Monaco is able to get a "1" without extensive use of "run off", then "run off" is not a hard requirement (as you might think given what we see in new purpose built "1" tracks). I mean Monaco has runoff in some strategic places, but for the most part it is just hard barriers everywhere.

I would love to know how the FIA track license/grading system works, but I have read that what differentiates a "1" vs. a "2" is as much other ancillary things (various facility stuff such as medical center, lighting, equipment, etc.) as it is pure track safety.

Regarding how FIA rates circuits, the best link I can find is here...

https://www.fia.com/circuit-safety

Which does not explicitly say how they define the boundaries between licenses/grades. I suspect it is a highly subjective evaluation so they probably don't want hard rules defined on paper. Again... Monaco being a prime example of if hard rules existed, they would likely require being bent to ensure the race continues. Nobody wants to be responsible for creating the rule that stops racing at Monaco.

Richard
I think Monaco gets a special Grade 1 status as a heritage track. I don't think it's actually a full one Grade 1 but rather a wink and nod thing. I think any new tracks enter they have to meet the new rules but Monaco gets an exemption. Now challenge that in court you could probably win but do you want to be that guy killing off Monaco in racing? Doubtful you'd get my takers at your track after that decision.

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Old 5 Jun 2018, 22:33 (Ref:3827041)   #1798
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Whilst that is true that only F1 requires it, most amateur series that have powerful cars use them anyway.

WEC (LMP2 and GTE-Am have Am drivers) is all Grade 1 except Le Mans (which is Grade 2 purely on length) and Sebring.
ELMS - Paul Ricard, Monza, Red Bull Ring, Silverstone, Spa, Portimao
Le Mans Cup - See above
Blancpain Endurance - Monza, Silverstone, Paul Ricard, Spa, Barcelona

F1 requires it, but everyone does use them anyway.
Everybody uses them on your side of the pond. On my side of the pond, not so much — there are only two Grade 1 circuits in the U.S., one of which isn't much used at all (Indy roval), the other is not currently used by IndyCar or IMSA (COTA).

Also, the question is why are the circuits you mention used so much by series that include amateurs? Is it purely a safety-based decision? Or is it that the tracks are heavily used exactly because they host a F1 race, which makes them a desirable destination for high-level series that feature amateur drivers? (Having a race at a famous track is seem as prestigious and/or amateurs want to race at those places F1 races.)

If it's the latter, then you could make the argument that F1 serves as a loss-leader for tracks, that it’s a necessary expense to generate business (usage) the rest of the year.
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Old 6 Jun 2018, 07:15 (Ref:3827082)   #1799
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So street circuits are the future according to Tilke? Might be better than some of the circuits he's designed. Although he did a good job with Austin, Istanbul and Sepang.

Personally I think too many tracks are made just for F1 instead of all series
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Old 6 Jun 2018, 13:13 (Ref:3827146)   #1800
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So realistically, what are the races/locations that could make it onto the calendar in the near future?

Miami is well documented and seems the most likely.

I’ve seen numerous references to a Hanoi street race, but very little substance beyond that so that seems a few years away.

Buenos Aires went to the extent of publishing the revised circuit map, but that would take quite a bit of work. Plus the economic situation in Argentina doesn’t seem to be conductive to bring the F1 circus.

There was seemingly an appetite for a Dutch GP at Assen, even going to the point of Charlie inspecting the circuit and declaring that not much needed to be done. But has that appetite been suppressed by a cooling in “Max-mania” given his questionable season so far?

That’s pretty much it for vaguely credible expressions of interest though.
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