Formula Super Vee research project

[allenbrown]

I have taken over the FSV history page previously maintained by John Robinson and I'm trying to update it before publishing it on OldRacingCars.com. John tells me he is no longer involved in motorsports and is happy for me to take it on.

I'd like the page - along with this thread - to become a home for FSV research in the future.

My first step it to try to develop the list of FSV constructors and models. Adding a few bits of information to John's initial list, I have this:

Constructor         Country Model        Year      Quantity     
Adler               CAN     ?            1983      1            
Altona              CAN     ?            1971/72   1            
Anson               ?       SA6          1985      ?            
Argo                UK      JM2          1978      ?            
Argo                UK      JM4          1979      ?            
Autoresearch        ?       ?            ?         ?            
Beach               USA     ?            1970      ?            
Biota               UK      ?            ?         ?            
Caldwell            USA     D-10         1970-71   ?            
Celi                BEL     AC5          1971      ?            
Chevron             UK      B46          1978      1            
Chevron             UK      B50          1979      4            
Condor              CAN     ?            1978      2            
Crossle             IRE     24F          1972      ?            
Dickson             USA     ?            1971      ?            
Elden               UK      PH14         1974      8 (4 to USA) 
Elden               UK      SV 18/22 (?) ?         ?            
Fuchs               D       ?            1970      ?            
Grac                F       ?            1970      ?            
Hawke               UK      DL5          1971      ?            
Hawke               UK      DL8          1972      ?            
Horag               CH      ?            1971      ?            
HVB                 NL      ?            1970      ?            
Kaimann             Austria ?            1970      ?            
Libra               USA     Mk II        1970      ?            
Lola                UK      T250         1970      ?            
Lola                UK      T252         1971      ?            
Lola                UK      T320         1973      23           
Lola                UK      T322         1974      ?            
Lola                UK      T324         1975      ?            
Lola                UK      T326         1976      ?            
Lola                UK      T328         1977      ?            
Lola                UK      T620         1978      26           
Lola                UK      T720         1979      ?            
Lynx                USA     ?            1971      ?            
March               UK      79V          1979      ?            
Martini             F       ?            ?         ?            
Modus               UK      M2           ?         ?            
Motul               D       ?            1971      ?            
Nickle              USA     ?            1971      ?            
Palliser-Winkelmann UK/USA  WDV-1        1970      ?            
Quasar              USA     ?            ?         ?            
Race Research       ?       ?            ?         ?            
Ralt                UK      RT1           1978-80? ?            
Ralt                UK      RT5          1982      ?            
Riley/Protofab      USA     PR-2         1978      ?            
Royale              UK      RP9          1971      ?            
Royale              UK      RP14         1972      ?            
Royale              UK      RP18         1973      apx 10 or 12 
Royale              UK      RP18A        1974      ?            
Royale              UK      RP19         1975      ?            
RPB                 SW      ?            1971      ?            
RSM-Tasco           D       ?            ?         ?            
Shannon             UK      ?            ?         ?            
Supernova           UK      BH4          1974      ?            
Supernova           UK      BH5/SSV75    1975      ?            
Taurus              UK      ?            ?         ?            
Titan               UK      ?            ?         ?            
ToJ                         ?            ?         ?            
Tui (or Leda-Tui)   UK      AM29         1972      ?            
Tui                 UK      BH3          1973      ?            
Van Diemen          UK      ?            ?         ?            
Veemax              FIN     Mk V         1970/71   ?            
Wheeler             USA     ?            1978      ?            
Zeitler             USA     ?            1970      ?            
Zink                USA     ?            1970      ?            
Zink                USA     Z-9          1972?     ?            
Zink                USA     Z-11         ?         ?            
Zink                USA     Z-14         1979      ?

Can anyone add or correct anything?

All contributions to the project will be greatly appreciated.

Allen

[ss_collins]

Yes I can add a fair bit - starting with he formula - super vee or vee? vee is the better of the two (uses the aircooled engine rather thand the water cooled).

I race in UK Formula Vee, I own an Austro and have just sold my Beach 5C. But I have raced sheanes, leastones and AHS's.

as for super vee there are not many running in the UK anymore. I think you would be doing a lot better to do vee rather than super vee as it is an active formula...

[allenbrown]

Maybe FV later. I'm starting from the larger capacity series (F5000, Indy, Tasman) and working my way towards the smaller (Atlantics, maybe F2 one day). FSV seems to fit in somewhere near F/Atlantic. FV was closer to Formula Ford, wasn't it?

In the US, FSV seems to have had a profile not dissimilar to F/Atlantic in the 1970s and 1980s. So that's the period I want to focus on.

Allen

[gfm]

Hi again Allan. Big project! For Supernova -
1973 - BH3 I thought Tui changed to Supernova in 73
74 - BH4
75 - BH5
I think in 1976 they called it SuperVW.
77 FSVW went water cooled
Kaimann (Kurt Bergman from Vienna) made FSVees until 77 at least.
Shame you can't get a response from VW motor sport in Germany. Bound to be a big library there. It was run by KP Rosorius as I remember and Jan Bannochie ran the FVee Association in the UK from VW in Croydon, where I worked for a year.

[gfm]

Taurus was Ronnie Grant's one off designed and made by Patrick Head. Beautiful little car.
Moot point - whether ATS modified Lolas were ATS built in fact.

[Pete Stowe]

Allen,
The following additional SuperVee’s are from 1970’s programmes (so the usual health warning regarding accuracy!) for Castle Combe meetings.

1971
Biota Monaco - driver Derek Cook

1974
Supernova BH3 - drivers: Peter Andlaw; Steve Tipping; Tim Rathmell
Harrison KH5 - Driver Mike Taylor (Gloucester)
Eton - Entrant Scanplan Racing Team, Driver Julian A Ashton (London)

1975
Elden Mk 17 - driver Mark Litchfield (London)
Taurus M24 - driver Ronnie Grant
Eton - drivers: Peter Gilvin & Ray Simpson (both London)

1976
Eton - driver Ray Simpson (London)
Tui B41 - driver Mike Eaton (Ringwood)

1977
Elden Mk.19 - driver Mark Litchfield (London) & Roger Manning (Maidstone)
Tui BN2 - driver Mike Eaton (Ringwood)
Tui BH1 - driver Mike Eaton (Ringwood)
Taurus M23 - driver Alan Doherty (Luton)

1978
Beany SV78 - Entrant Team Beany , driver Mike Eaton (Ferndown)

1979
Reynard - driver Dave Greenwood (Kings Lynn)
Shannon SV79 - driver Bob Birrell (London)

[Supernova]

Allen,

i will do my best to help. Just to start things off and running through your list alphabetically:

Autoresearch: Built in USA by Don Edmunds. Web site:

http://www.donedmunds.com/fullsize/supervee/index.htm

Beach: One of the first Super Vees over here in the States - I hope to be seeing one of these cars next weekend at Texas World Speedway (Corinthians Vintage Racing). I will take photos if you are interested.

Quasar: I believe this to have been a one off car. I spoke to one of the parties involved in the project - Louis Hodges. The car was sponsored by Koni so car was known as the Koni Quasar.

I have some other information that might help and I will get to it when I can dig it out.

Mike Short,
Austin Tx.

[adavies]

I can tell you a bit more about Ansons in US SV, although others may have much better info. As far as I know the SA 3 model first showed up in the US in 1982 (the old Wanadoo site that had a lot of this info is now off-line). Peter Moodie drove one, and several other drivers drove the car(s) as well. Ed Pimm won the SV championship in 1983 and while he split his time between a Ralt RT-5 and an Anson SA 3C, I believe he won most of his races in the Anson.

In 1984 the SA 4 came over to the US, and I believe Tommy Byrne put it on the pole at the Long Beach GP SV preliminary race. By 1985 the SA 6 model came on line and was driven in SV by Johnny O'Connell and others.

At least that should fill out the Anson model range for you as far as US SV goes. Others, I'm sure, have additional and probably better information.

Regards,

Allan

[adavies]

Oh, I should also mention that the Anson was a British-built car, designed by Irishman Gary Anderson who went on to design for Jordan in F1 and also worked for several other F1 teams.

Regards,

Allan

[allenbrown]

Thanks Allan

[Frank de Jong]

Allen, take a look at http://www.thegaffer.com/motorsport/cars/cars.php
Check makes like Kaimann, Lola, Ralt, Maco, Celi etc.

[allenbrown]

Thanks Frank

We have just gained our first 'fan' thread: see here on TNF for discussion of German racing cars.

Allen

[Frank de Jong]

Alan,

a quick check in my database shows that Super Vee's should be found at the site mentioned earlier:
A.S.S.
Argo
ATS-Lola
Austro-Kaimann
Celi
Chevron
Dubray
Elden
Fuchs
Horag
Horag-Giger
JTS
Kaimann
LCR-Giger
Lola
Maco
March
Modus
Motul
Ralt
Royale
RSM-Tasco
Shannon
Supernova
Toj
Toj-Modus
Tui/Supernova
Veemax

[ghinzani]

Originally Posted by gfm

Taurus was Ronnie Grant's one off designed and made by Patrick Head. Beautiful little car.
Moot point - whether ATS modified Lolas were ATS built in fact.

John, you need to think hard about all the great drivers you raced against in the states and europe over the years! Dont suppose you had a camera with you during those days? Do you know if Ronnie is still going? Loved it when he was in F3, he was one of the few people with a driver older than ours - himself being almost a pensioner as I recall.

Slightly off topic but I dont suppose you know where I can get some pics of Mike Hollands 934, especially the year G-force ran it for Graham in the Equity & Law livery?

cheers

[allenbrown]

Frank

Thanks for these. The additions are ASS, Dubray, JTS, LCR-Giger and Maco. Do you know the years that any of these appeared? Or models?

I still think ATS-Lola is just a Lola T324. Any idea what the difference is between a Austro-Kaimann and a Kaimann or between a Horag-Giger and a Horag?

Allen

[Frank de Jong]

The makes I mentioned should be on the Gaffer site; A.S.S. is spelt there as ass (...).
You can find type numbers and years inside.
The ATS Lola to my knowledge had modified bodywork (and was much more succesfull...). They did the same trick to the T322 (look under "ATS (D)"). The T324 found at the Lola section is in fact an ex-ATS. No idea about the other ones, the names might be quite unofficial...

[gfm]

Sorry, but I'm not very good at the technical history side of things - the ATS team Lolas of 74/5 seemed to get a lot of development, certainly a big budget team, works motors and stuff. The cars appeared well modified and had a very big wide body (nose & side pods) convertions though I don't know who did it. Maybe Lolas even. Quite useful for moving you out the way, sideways! My Lola in 76 stayed normal bodied.
The first year I did SVW 73, they were Kaimanns - maybe Austro-Kaimanns were F Vee cars from previous years. Another multi-car team. I didn't think they were that good (space frame chassis) but had good pedlers with budgets for works motors agian.
I remember there being a Horag, but it was a mid-field thing. Horag Holtz?
I ended up with quite a number of snaps but didn't record stuff as I should have. Which was a shame because we witnessed some truely unique cars/drivers/events supporting the mainliner meetings as we did. VW got us into some decent venues.
Ronnie Grant would be a very grand old chap now if he's still about. Quite how he got his nose in a full face, I don't know. Clapham based wasn't he, close by an alley/arches place with Ray and one or two others in there? Incestuous bunch. I remember admiring Richard Scotts Head cars too. Nice guy Richard. Wasn't his F2 car called a Scott?
(Go to G-Force direct on the web. Yes they have some old photos on their office wall which may include that '934')

[Andrew Kitson]

Royale built many Super Vees.
The first was the RP9, designed in 1971 by Mike Smith and Peter Bohanna. Successful Vee/FSV competitor and USA Royale agent Bill Scott persuaded Bob King of Royale to build it, VW USA provided some finance. 27 built.

The RP14 was the next FSV. Built in 1972 and again designed by Smith and Bohanna, based on the RP11 F3 car. 21 built. 10 went to the USA.
Amazingly it did not have a cooling fan, despite an air cooled engine. Fibreglass shoulder cooling ducts were used which were a feature of later Royales, passing air was the only cooling.

RP18 from 1973, 11 built, 4 went to the USA, the rest to Europe.
RP18A from '74, 11 built, 8 to the USA, rest in the UK.

The last Royale FSV was the RP19 from '75.
10 built. 6 went to the states, 2 to Germany and 2 UK.

Details from 'Nowhere to Hide' The story of Royale Racing Cars.
With many photos of all Royale types.
Available from www.tfmpublishing.co.uk
ISBN 0 9530052 9 1

[Andrew Kitson]

Allen you might want to get hold of the above book as it includes all Royale chassis numbers (for all types) and customers.

[Dan Rear]

John, I think you're right re the Horag, Marcus Hotz did have some involvement with it. He later went on to enter some v good F2/F3000s, viz Thackwell, Wendlinger amongst others IIRC. Also Beat Jans, and Rolf Biland ??

[ghinzani]

Originally Posted by Dan Rear

John, I think you're right re the Horag, Marcus Hotz did have some involvement with it. He later went on to enter some v good F2/F3000s, viz Thackwell, Wendlinger amongst others IIRC. Also Beat Jans, and Rolf Biland ??

IIRC he was something to do with Bridgestone maybe? His cars always seemed to run on Japanese tyres - or maybe Jap Dunlops. Also always sponsored by Lista. He certainly ran Thackwell, but I think you are confusing Wendlinger as he was with Helmut Markos team. Hotz-Horag ran up until lates 80s with March and Lola chassis.

[gfm]

Andrew – ref your remarks, Royales running no cooling fans – well no FSVW racecars ran cooling fans. They all relied upon cooling fins on the standard barrels and heads and fibre cooling ducts taking air down on to the heads, which worked surprisingly well. The main point of weakness on the engines was heat and pre detonation of course; running lean was where the power was but you were always on the edge as far as burning pistons was concerned. Jetting was an art. Oil coolers were therefore LARGE.

Royales were good and there were plenty of them but I think they were space frames and given their American market potential, they went for good looks rather than correct aerodynamics. Ultimately they weren’t quite the business. Chris Barnett won the UK Silver Cup in 74 didn’t he (I spent more time abroad – see it still hurts!)

Again, fading memories don’t help but do I remember Hotz correctly as being a one-eyed gentleman? Or cross eyed, challenged in the height department? Great character, unusual for a Swiss. Was he a tyre dealer then? Sounds likely.

There was a quick Swiss driver, Rudi Caprez, quite fiery; always took a few laps to settle him down if he came close. Did quite a job in some lame cars; later bought some TOJ stuff off him. Max Heidegger helped him a lot; helped me too did Max. There was a wonderful chap. He was the importer to Liechtenstein for Jaguar and was a great engineer. Amazingly hard working. Made great FSVW motors, then went onto BMW M12 motors, short stoked them. Along with a DFV, the M12 was a wonderful engine to drive. 320bhp/2litre 4 pot revving to 9+. Run all day if you didn’t abuse them. Sorry – fsvw.

[gfm]

The most amazing FSVW I ever saw was I think the Zinc. At Daytona, I’d qualified on pole and this Zinc thing was being finished in th paddock and staggered about to get on the back of the grid. Elliot Forbes-Robinson drove it absolutely lying down and it came past us on the opening lap like it was in another race with a 935 engine in the back. I was taken out by a spinner a lap or two later but EFR ran away from the field. Probably 74.

What was the name of the Swedish engine builder chap who worked for Opert for a while, who built a car for himself? Not Bertil Roos … Bertil Skollencog …. Bugger. Don’t think I see it on your lists. Quite an proper car, self built self financed etc ran in Europe too. Was it called ‘Bertils’? (So Bert Ray could have called his cars a ‘Bert’!)

[David McKinney]

I don't remember a Bertils car but do recall Bertils engines, in F/Atlantic I think

[gfm]

Does the name Bror Jaklund ring a bell. It may not have been 'Bertils Skollencog' - memory playing tricks. Jaklund?