The 'Credit Crunch' and the Future of Club Motor Sport

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Problem is that the circuit owners need to start the ball rolling by dropping thier hire fee's,then[perhaps] the organisers will follow suit.Its an area that has needed looking at for a long while,admission/entry fee's are all way too high,as Eddy said,in europe the circuit owners are much more realistic which means the organisers dont need to charge so much on the gate.15 Euros for a whole weekends spectating at Spa,compare that with Silverstone Classic!

I can't see how they will cut prices, they still have the same if not higher overheads to cover. I'd wouldn't be overly surprised if hire costs increased significantly to cover what could be lower usage next year.

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by falcemob

I can't see how they will cut prices, they still have the same if not higher overheads to cover. I'd wouldn't be overly surprised if hire costs increased significantly to cover what could be lower usage next year.

And I won't be overly surprised if they don't have many takers !

[Al Weyman]

I agree with Gordon, that would be suicide, I for one am on the limit of what I will pay, £200 for 10 laps is just too expensive.

[andy97]

A few more regional (or single circuit) series for the club racer might help lower the overall costs by lowering transport and accom costs and reducing the need (?) to go testing.

[Al Weyman]

Thats no good as there are no tracks in Watford! :-)

[R59]

The circuits are going to be in a heck of a state financially. This is all going to hit them very hard indeed.

If they put up their fees, we won't go, they'll make less money than before, and it'll all get very sad.

The corporate entertainment & experiences market is going to take a hit. Right now it's keeping going on the vouchers bought for last Christmas or birthdays earlier in the year I'd bet. Once that dries up, it'll start to quieten down.

The general testing will fizzle out as people drop testing as an expense they can live with out, just so they can keep racing a little longer.

What's there solution?

To get the public in. And to do that, you have to put stuff on that the public want to see. What's more, there's no point in just doing it, and not telling the masses that you're going to do it, so they have to market the events.

Racing, bands, shows, events, funfairs, etc... something for all of the family.

To make things more interesting, mixed genre racing - with races for cars, bikes, karts, trucks. Obviously you start the day with the bikes, then karts, then cars, then finish off with trucks.

Between races you have on-track demonstrations, stunt riders, drivers, etc...

It'll cost money to make it happen, but the return should be very profitable - to the point where the racing is part of the show, and not at the expense of the competitor.

If this recession goes the way that some analyists think it might, then the one in the early 90's will look like a minor hiccup, and we're in for a rough ride for the next few years. Thanks Dubya!

[Al Weyman]

One major factor difference this time I believe from several I others I have lived and survived through is that the interest rates are not insanely high and may even come down further so I cannot see how it is goingto be as bad as in the 80's when the rates grew by about 10% up to 15% was it? I remember my mortage at the time increased by about £400 a month and that was on 80's wages, it was very tough especially as the home improvement companies I was subbing to went under. Get these bloody energy prices down to a managable size and stop trying to lead the world in green issues when our biggest rivals (China and India) refuse to play ball, why does the UK always have to play honest Johnny?

[Tim Falce]

One thing to remember is that there will always be the new blood entering racing who won't think it's too expensive. Like us when we started they will think it's the norm and accept it, it won't be until they have got four or five years down the road, they've been there and done it and then realise they are being shafted that they will start seriously thinking about it.
Funnily enough, or not, something similar was said to me when I started racing 8 years ago.

[Al Weyman]

I am not so sure Tim, everytime I tell younger people when they ask what do you get for winning etc and tell them nothing and generally pay 200 quid for the privalidge they look at me as though I am quite insane, they may well be right!

[Highside]

Sorry guys, but just saying "reduce entry fees" just won't cut it with the circuit owners - they make much more money out off trackdays anyway. And besides, they are under the same finacial constraints as everyone else.

If you really want to reduce your entry fees - then I'm afraid it is down to you, the racer, to do something about it, starting with asking your organising club to buy their own grids (i.e. not from BARC etc), and then fill them (and I mean fill them to at least 90-95% capacity every race), dividing the cost of the race between all the participants.

At the moment, even if your series fills every grid at every track you go to, you are more than likely subsidising another series where only ten or fifteen people turn up, via the BARC or whatever. I'm afraid the days where that was a successful business model are behind us, as there just aren't going to enough people with more money than sense to make it work.

This isn't a flight of fancy either, it's already being done with the Project 8 Racing club (aka TTRS and PBMW), and I think they are not the only ones (can't remember if it is the MX5's or the MR2's that do somthing similar, plus of course there are the very successful individual circuit based series, such as at Castle Combe etc).

An example: lets compare the BARC event that Big Al did at Silverstone National earlier this month, against the Project 8 event at the Silverstone Grand Prix circuit I did back in September.

BARC event - £200 for a fifteen min race and fifteen mins practice (is that right Al?) on Silverstone National. That works out at £6.60p per min or £5.08p per mile.

Project 8 event - £250 for a twenty min practice, and two half hour races on the Silverstone Grand Prix Circuit. That works out to £3.13p or £2.17p per mile.

The sacrifice of course is that you either have to be in a popular class that can fill the grid no mater where you go, or accept running on a joint grid with other series/championships or whatever.

It's up to us - if you really want to save money, make the change and shop around for your racing: it's a free market.

If you like the status quo, keep giveing your money to the big clubs to divide among the huge number of series and championships out there, successful or otherwise.

Just don't hold your breath waiting around for someone else to fix it, saying that entry fees are too high. Your the ones paying the money, it's your choice.

[kjw]

Motor Sport is not a cheap hobby and everyone who takes part knows this. Entry fees are just a minor element of racing. The major cost being the car, racewear, tyres, travelling, accommodation, repairs. etc. Cut the entry fee in half and it won't make much difference to the annual cost. If it is really something you want to do then you will pay and justify to yourself that it is worth it. The problem is that everything that is to do with motor sport is expensive. The costs need to be cut across the board.

[Tim Falce]

kjw, you must be one of the new people in motor racing, of course entry fees are a major cost. The car is a capital asset, all the time it's in one piece that is, race wear has a life of say 5 or 10 years. When I started 8 years ago, a short race was 20-25 minutes for say £130ish at Brands Hatch and maybe a double header at Lydden for £110, those cost have in a lot of cases more than doubled and the time has been cut to a short race being 10 or 15 minutes which in real terms can mean a 4 fold increase. It is a big part of the budget and value for money counts. Cut the entry fee in half and it would pay the year's fuel bill and buy me a set of tyres.

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by kjw

Entry fees are just a minor element of racing.

kjw I suggest that you pay for my race entry in the Heritage at Brands 25/26 if you think its cheap £628 00 !

[Highside]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

kjw I suggest that you pay for my race entry in the Heritage at Brands 25/26 if you think its cheap £628 00 !

Damn, too slow - I was hoping that KJW would be my sponsor...

£628? Wow.

Out of interest, how long is the race and what track are you on? For that sort of money Dr Palmer should be cheuffeuring you to the track in his helicopter and letting you pick the grid-girls uniforms...

[kjw]

Gordon maybe I should have left out the word minor! I would love to be able to sponsor you but I could do with a sponsor myself. That entry fee is exorbitant, that is three times more than I normally pay. However I still maintain that entry fees are just a part of the overall cost of racing and every aspect is expensive. But it always has been and is unlikely to get cheaper.

[GORDON STREETER]

OK its actually 2 half hour races on the Indy circuit. But considering it cost me £450 for a one hour race on arguably one of the best circuits (Spa) the other week it does seem a bit OTT. I will point out that we do get hospitality for that price, but my sponsor supplies the beer

[Al Weyman]

Filling the grid is the problem though and with TTRS you are effectively combining two races together to get the numbers up i.e. PBMW and the Pre-94's, not knocking or trying to be confrontational it but thats what is happening as I see it. Now thats OK but we have to make up our minds is this is what is wanted as I know for a fact that some guys in our Classics just dont want to race with the later Post Historic (maybe its me? ) and in fact would rather be in a grid of 20 or so cars, btw does'nt F1 only run 18 on the grid so you dont need vast numbers of cars out there to have a race but that is not the issue here. I think personally there is milage in what Highside suggests but but it needs two groups of racers and one that prehaps does not mind playing the cannon fodder role and getting repeated lapped by much more powerful cars but I wonder how long it will be before the shine rubs off of that cheap entry or not, I guess only time will tell.

[Al Weyman]

Thats an awful lot of money Gordon, I am sorry I know I complained at the £200 for the Silverstone event but I would rather do three of those and have change than what you are paying. Not talking about track time either as to be honest 12 or 14 laps is enough for me and i would rather string it out over three separate meetings as its the occassion I enjoy and being part of it as much if not more than the race.

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I am sorry I know I complained at the £200 for the Silverstone event but I would rather do three of those and have change than what you are paying. .

But in real terms 3 seperate meetings at Silverstone would cost a dammed sight more than £600. But I am on your side and still think we are being shafted big time, and my money tree was cut down a while back !!!

[Al Weyman]

Yes I realise that but I would prefer to have the track time spread over three separate events and occassions than all the racing on one day as I said I prefer being part of the actual event and occassion to the race itself and cannot do more than so many laps and if I am honest get a bit bored after about 14 laps and I am not that fit either and just want the race to finish, each to their own I guess maybe I just want to get away from the old woman :-).

[Highside]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Filling the grid is the problem though and with TTRS you are effectively combining two races together to get the numbers up i.e. PBMW and the Pre-94's, not knocking or trying to be confrontational it but thats what is happening as I see it.

Hi Al,

Nothing confontational there Al - thats exactly how it is. But by combining together, we both benefit from the lower costs.

If you have the attitude that a class win is as good as an overall win (and make the effort to reward it accordingly with garlands, trophys, podiums etc), then I think two similar but seperate race series can race together for mutual benefit, and everyones a winner.

I know what your saying with classics and post historics. There has to be mutual consent between combining grids, and if one isn't happy with the other (or the speed differential is too different), then no one will be happy.

I guess its horses for courses, but if you want to race in a grid of ten or fifteen, then unfortunetly it's going to cost you more, unless you relly on well backed grids to subsurdise you, which nowerdays will become more and more tricky...

[MGDavid]

gosh I don't know how ALL you guys can afford such expensive track time. My last race weekend cost me £1.44 per mile or £2.10 per minute whichever way you want to look at it; and no it wasn't in the UK and yes it was on one of the finest circuits in the world (2.5 hours at the 'Ring over 3 days).

[Highside]

Trust me David, if i could do every race at the ring I would...

[Al Weyman]

Well I am happy to combine in fact the Classics had a race at Cadwell this year and I asked if I could join in as a guest entry and was declined which when they ended up with around 20 cars IMHO is daft. HSCC has granted me a guest entry at the forthcoming Walter Hayes support race in my 70's car and IMHO that is the way forward, i.e. flexibility.

[retro_msport]

Someone mentioned that the circuits earn more from trackdays, well a while ago i was wondering how come trackdays are cheaper ....

The day was an open pitlane, 9am till 5pm for £225
there was about 50 cars there, even if there was a 100 work out the figures.

The DMN is cheap, but they get charged around under £200 with a ful grid, so less cars and slightly less money, for 1/2-3/4's of an hour.

I was there with an Escort,new engine, new suspension, bit of a testday, now the drivers been to the DMN, and enjoyed it, would he come out and race instead of sprinting, nope, the costs are too high, and he said for the same money i can blast around all day here, not just half an hour. And he added that hes picking and choosing sprints as they are getting expensive.

so if we just look at round figures ..

200 for the day, times the 50 cars equals £10,000 to Brands
200 for the race's, times the 30 cars (DMN) equals £6,000
then you have another 4-8 championships there,their costs may be higher with less cars, or lower with more, so we will take the average as £200x 30 cars.

Trackday £200x 50 cars there = £10,000
Race day £6,000/ championships x 6 = £36,000

so from my simple maths, and perhaps i'm missing something, or i'm completly wrong , but if Brands can run a trackday for £26,000 less than a race day, then why are the fees so high ?

Thats without adding gate prices .. 22,000* people at £15/person for the final round of the DMN (ok there was some trucks there ) ...
thats £330,000, plus the championships £36,000...
Total £366,000 !!!!!!!!

And yet they can run a trackday for £10,000 .. sorry but it smacks of something smelly when they say they cant lower the costs to the clubs


* i know thats a huge gate, but hey, i'm trying to make the circuits look bad, the week before they had 18k through the gates for the BTCC