Delta Wing Discussion ONLY

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Articus

Hmm. I didnt realize this is the Delta Wing thread.

That's OK, the DeltaWing concept is a "Big Tent".
All are welcome. The more diversity the better!

[NaBUru38]

The DeltaWing is rising, very cheaply btw >D

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Articus

A common tub implies a common roof line/roof shape.
A Ferrari and Porsche have striking different roof lines. How do you get Porsche to build something that is not 911 shaped? Or how do you tell Ferrari to build something shaped like a Porsche.

Each design has its own inherent safety aspect. To each there own.

I don't see an advantage with such a diverse GT lineup like we have know. In fact it detracts from the road relevance. Instead of using the chassis straight from the actual road car we would be using unified carbon fibre tub? Which gets produced in significantly less volume than the road car chassis. Meaning it would be more expensive.

DTM cars use a common carbon chassis, do they all look alike? This the post I was referring to http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....&postcount=363. It can be used for multiple applications. I even said the manufacturers would shy away from that and rather create their own, so why are we continuing on with it?

[Articus]

Originally Posted by TF110

DTM cars use a common carbon chassis, do they all look alike?

Yes they do. They're akin to DP's. Just different noses and rear end bodyworks.

Originally Posted by TF110

This the post I was referring to http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....&postcount=363. It can be used for multiple applications. I even said the manufacturers would shy away from that and rather create their own, so why are we continuing on with it?

Oh? Well below you seem to defend the idea...

Originally Posted by TF110

I don't think so. It's not a whole 'car', I think it's more of a 'tub'. In the Super GT thread the applications of the car was shown to be able to fit different layouts of the engine.

Well rightly i guess this can carry in the Suepr GT thread.

[TF110]

Defend what idea? I only said that it was wrong to assume all the cars would look the same. In the SGT thread it was mentioned the Toyota GT-86 could be based off the 'mother chassis'. Nowhere does it state you have to use a standard roofline etc. DTM's are COMMON, but they don't all look exactly the same. Even though it's close to 'spec' they still retain the looks (somewhat) of their road car counterpart.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by miatanut

It has changed with Panoz' involvement. The original concept was open source.
Check out this, starting next to the first DeltaWing photo:
http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no340.html
The whole point of the car is to NOT be a spec car, but to get people thinking about why things are the way they are. If you had a PE class, it would be full of one-off or two-off cars, built by the teams, trying out new ideas.

The way racing was before spec racing took over.

This article, also by Gordon Kirby published back in March 2010, explains about the production and non-spec aspect of the Delta Wing.

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no223.html

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

This article, also by Gordon Kirby published back in March 2010, explains about the production and non-spec aspect of the Delta Wing.

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no223.html

I knew I had read an article like that but I didn't know it was Kirby and I couldn't find it anywhere.

Thanks!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by miatanut

I knew I had read an article like that but I didn't know it was Kirby and I couldn't find it anywhere.

Thanks!

No probs; Kirby is pretty incisive.

[TME45]

Originally Posted by miatanut

Don Panoz certainly wants to get his money back, but the concept of DeltaWing was never a spec series. It was about 'what would racing be like if the rules weren't so restrictive?'

I would say the ideal venue for it would be a "PE" (for "Efficiency") class intended to slot between P2 & P1, so it wouldn't normally compete for overall wins, which would help keep costs under control. It would have very open technical rules so we could see what's possible. With a bunch of clever engineers working on the problem, I think it wouldn't take them long to make a laughing stock out of "half the fuel, half the tires" and the rules-makers would have to start working them toward 1/3 to keep them from beating the P1's.

It could be 1970's auto racing all over again, except a lot safer.

they don't want to be a spec series but they should be alive first

[TME45]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

This article, also by Gordon Kirby published back in March 2010, explains about the production and non-spec aspect of the Delta Wing.

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no223.html

all deltawing racing not means spec racing
you still can have your own engine, body work, or build\buy your own DW chassis, just like what we see in F3, LMP2 & F1

[Maelochs]

Depends how it is done. As has been mentioned, Dr. Don wants to get his money back, which means selling spec chassis.

Also, considering the class would not compete for overall wins, who would really want to invest in one-off chassis for the class? Remeber, the DWing was 1/2 an AMR 1 which saved a huge eamount as the tub had been crash-tested. Why would anyone pay big bucks to build a one-off DW-type chassis,. and then maybe find out there were only two cars in the class and no one wanted to sponsor the car?

Also, the original idea (and i have heard it confirmed since) was that the original engineering crew would review and sign off on any mods, to protect the DW name, and that all mods would be publicly available once approved.

I love the PE class idea, but it has to make financial sense, and I don't see how it would.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Depends how it is done. As has been mentioned, Dr. Don wants to get his money back, which means selling spec chassis.

Also, considering the class would not compete for overall wins, who would really want to invest in one-off chassis for the class? Remeber, the DWing was 1/2 an AMR 1 which saved a huge eamount as the tub had been crash-tested. Why would anyone pay big bucks to build a one-off DW-type chassis,. and then maybe find out there were only two cars in the class and no one wanted to sponsor the car?

Also, the original idea (and i have heard it confirmed since) was that the original engineering crew would review and sign off on any mods, to protect the DW name, and that all mods would be publicly available once approved.

I love the PE class idea, but it has to make financial sense, and I don't see how it would.

I think the publicity the DW got shows a lot of interest in something new and different, so I don't think finding sponsorship would be a challenge. The cars in that class would get disproportionate coverage, technical close-ups, etc. because there would be a lot more to talk about.

The people who would run them would be people like Dan Gurney (a younger Dan Gurney), who had oil running in their veins and wanted to be involved in something leading edge. If you left the energy limit alone for a while, as folks figured out better ways of doing things, they could eventually compete for race wins and ACO would have to decide if that was OK, or if they wanted to cut the energy limit back.

You could also have somebody like Audi do their calculation and decide they were clever enough they could win overall from that class and jump in with both feet.

After the class got established, maybe it would be OK if it could compete for overall wins (through technical advances, not an increase in the energy budget) and the manufacturers could move over to that class to strut their stuff, turning it into the manufacturer playground.

[Maelochs]

Big issue with getting sponsorship with something unproven .... Look how late Nissan was to the party; Michelin was pretty much the only sponsor (except the brakes company which still no one has heard of) and Panoz dollars got the car built.

How many companies want to sponsor something completely radical and completely unproven? All that money is wasted if the ideas don't pan out.

Also, the DWing got a lot of publicity---but didn't get any more money, and now it can't afford to do demo laps anywhere. If a whole field could get sponsorship, why couldn't a single car?

As for who will build them ... the days when a metal-working shop like Chaparral or Gurney's AAR can bend and glue and hammer some aluminum and make a car are past. Whenever builds a car now has to have an autoclave, and some carbon-fiber experts.

The DWing didn't even have a spare tub; if it had wrecked it would have been over and done. Anyone wanting to homologate a new chassis would have to build a couple for crash testing, something Dwing couldn't afford to do. Shoot, even established chassis makers can't afford to build chassis for existing classes (Look at P1---Lola broke, Oak not interested, Wirth has designs but no funding--Looks like P1 in 2014 will be Porsche, Audi, Toyota and Honda customer cars to pay for the factory cars.)

I'd love to see it---a class of cars built by free-thinking engineers looking for unusual solutions. Thing is, someone has to pay for it. No one wants to pay for the existing DWing--not even Nissan or Michelin. And I am pretty sure Duncan Dayton went Everywhere looking for cash; the guy is good at what he does.

If DeltaWing LLC can't raise the cash to even do demonstration laps after the car's successful (sort of) Le Mans run, i don't see where the money will come from to build a whole field of unproven, possibly unworkable one-offs. Particularly for cars which, at best will be competing for TV time with other backmarkers and at worst will prove to be good only on paper (Chaparral 2H? The go-kart Shadow AVS-1).

I'd say a spec field would be easier to fund---something like Indy Lights might be the best way to get the car out there. A whole new class using almost no existing hardware and very little existing design theory? I think only the factories can afford that and they want to be in P1.

[miatanut]

I have not seen anything indicating there is no evidence for the DW has no funding to even do demonstration laps.

There are several parties with a piece of this and maybe the lack of anything apparently happening on the surface is because there are squabbles going on right now behind the scenes about who has the rights to what. Toyota was complaining how Nissan got tons of publicity for peanuts invested. Radio Le Mans said their streaming dropped 30% when it got punted out.

There's evidence of ROI there for somebody.

I think the bigger concern is a spending war, which is what would happen if it could compete for an overall win. If it was targeted just below that, then people could decide if they want to take something so radical on.

As far as unproven, I think it was pretty well proven at Le Mans. It was just sad they weren't given an opportunity to run it until it went out on its own.

[Maelochs]

Indeed, Miatnut, the DWing is a proven commodity, and I think with development it could keep up with the P1s. However … you were speaking of a wide-open class of experimental cars. All of those (except DWing clones) Would be unproven. This is why I don’t think a lot of investors would line up to lay down cash.

As for the DWing … Might I remind you (as I was reminded) that the last Toyota was also taken out in the crash which cancelled the DWing at Le Mans. Maybe interest dropped by 30 percent not because the DWing, which got very little coverage during the race, got knocked out, but because any hope of anyone challenging Audi was ended right there.

As for the DWing not having the money to do demo laps … I am not going to search the web for the latest Ben Bowlby interview where he said that … you can if you like. I bet it might be on the Highcroft site, but I am not looking to prove a point. Believe me, disbelieve me, look it up or not—no big deal any way it goes.

Your idea that because the car isn’t running anywhere, it must be rolling in dough doesn’t make sense. Why would anyone at Highcroft, DeltaWing LLC or AAR care what Toyota thought? Those guys need to run the car to keep the buzz going because they need to sell the car somewhere. Not running it is the worst thing they can do.

If they had the money, they’d be on some track somewhere, and they’d be pumping out press releases, just like they did every few weeks from the time it was introduced in what, April 2010? until the week after Le Mans.

As I said, I’d love to see a class with wide-open rules that really allowed and inspired original thinking. I am not going to sprain my brain trying to twist it past all the very reasonable financial issues standing in the way.

If the global economy stops getting worse (not looking too likely any time soon with the whole Grexit-Portugal whatever other Euro states issues) then we might see that class, but right now most people seem to think spending money making cars go in circles is not the best use of the cash.

Grand Am has its GX class, which supposedly invites “out of the box” thinking … so far it has attracted the Mazda diesel and an overweight version of the GT4 Lotus Evora. And those are Cheap cars to race.

I think the DWing’s best hope is getting accepted by Indy Lights, if Randy Bernard isn’t dead set against it. DeltaWing LLC might have to change the contract so the corporation doesn’t own the rights, including the right of rejection of modifications, to the design.

Now that the design is proven to perform, it ought to be easy to sell the car as a cheap alternative to the old cars—assuming Michelin wants to take on a whole ‘nother series, or that Firestone is willing to develop a vehicle-specific tire (they pay for most of the series right now.)

I don’t see Randy Bernard giving Anyone the degree of control over the series that DeltaWing LLC originally wanted, no matter how unique the car is. Randy’s reputation rides on the IndyCar series, and I don’t see him turning it over to Anyone except the Sisters.

I Really don’t see a sound financial basis for a wholly and entirely new class of cars not using any existing parts (except wildly modified) and based on possibly ineffective engineering. Again, look at the AVS Shadow Mark 1 or the Chaparral 2H—even the best minds get it entirely wrong sometimes, and no one wants to pay for that right now.

[miatanut]

Don Panoz would love to have the thing on the track at every ALMS round, and he has the cash to do it. The fact it's not running would suggest he doesn't have Nissan's agreement to do that, and Nissan, being a large multinational, has a big, heavy corporate governance structure that probably makes getting approval difficult. Especially if they think they can cash in on it but don't yet have their game plan worked out.

Someday we will learn the dirt on what is happening behind the scenes currently.

As to the Toyota's effect on the streams dropping off, I suppose finding out what happened with the streams when the last Peugeot dropped out a couple years back would be a guide. I was rooting for the Toyota and kept going after they were out, and I was rooting for the Peugeots, and I kept going after the last one was out a couple years back. I think ardent fans watch even when "their" team drops out, and casual fans interested in something funky and new don't.

[TME45]

Originally Posted by miatanut

I think the publicity the DW got shows a lot of interest in something new and different, so I don't think finding sponsorship would be a challenge. The cars in that class would get disproportionate coverage, technical close-ups, etc. because there would be a lot more to talk about.

The people who would run them would be people like Dan Gurney (a younger Dan Gurney), who had oil running in their veins and wanted to be involved in something leading edge. If you left the energy limit alone for a while, as folks figured out better ways of doing things, they could eventually compete for race wins and ACO would have to decide if that was OK, or if they wanted to cut the energy limit back.

You could also have somebody like Audi do their calculation and decide they were clever enough they could win overall from that class and jump in with both feet.

After the class got established, maybe it would be OK if it could compete for overall wins (through technical advances, not an increase in the energy budget) and the manufacturers could move over to that class to strut their stuff, turning it into the manufacturer playground.

If you cpould do it on a AMR one, y can't you do it on a lola, dallara, or anyother LMP & formula chassis?

[Maelochs]

You could build a DWing out of any existing tub. Thing is, the tubs are also extremely expensive. The reason the DWing could afford the AMR-One tub was because no one wanted it (until Pescarolo showed up and snatched up the other one.)

Pretty much all the other tubs that are out there are built to customer orders as race cars or spares for teams that intend to race traditional P1 or P2 cars. It’s not like you can go to K-Mart’s “Racing Monocoque’ department and pick up a few on sale. Factories build to order, and if you order a tub you pay full price—and if you don’t have anywhere to race the resulting car, you can’t get sponsors and can’t pay for the tub.

If ALMS or Indy Lights creates a spec series around the DWing, bespoke tubs could be built. Because there would be a place to race the cars, there would be a program that teams could take to sponsors exactly like they do with existing Indy Lights or ALMS cars.

Right now, there is no place to race DWings, so there is no one willing to shell out huge money to have a tub built.

[hanmer]

Hi

Here is my livery concept for a Nissan Deltawing entry to the American Lemans Series. Based the idea on the NASA Space shutte, using matt black around the nose, wings, intakes, roll hoops and cockpit. Used the Deltawing Racing logo to slice into the black areas to create the impression of speed having worn away the paintwork.




Hope we see this car back on the track in some format

[Maelochs]

If the Army can sponsor dragsters, NASA should sponsor the DWing.

[icemachine]

Originally Posted by hanmer

Hi

Here is my livery concept for a Nissan Deltawing entry to the American Lemans Series. Based the idea on the NASA Space shutte, using matt black around the nose, wings, intakes, roll hoops and cockpit. Used the Deltawing Racing logo to slice into the black areas to create the impression of speed having worn away the paintwork.




Hope we see this car back on the track in some format

Great look for it!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

If the Army can sponsor dragsters, NASA should sponsor the DWing.

Cool idea but NASA doesn't quite have the funding it once had, since Obama was elected.

[Maelochs]

Yeah, it sucks how money gets tight when the entire world economy crashes.

Cracks me up how people blame Obama for the slow recovery ... I guess those are folks who haven't heard of "Europe" yet.

On a faster, note ... I don't have much hope for the DWing. Just needing specialized wheels and tires makes it hard to find a home, and since its big advantage is efficiency it pretty much needs an endurance format to succeed. No great savings in a sprint format, and doesn't fit any current endurance class, plus Michelin has to make one-off tires ...

it was a great idea and great attempt but until it can be melded into an existing endurance class, it will sit in a warehouse somewhere.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Yeah, it sucks how money gets tight when the entire world economy crashes.

Cracks me up how people blame Obama for the slow recovery ... I guess those are folks who haven't heard of "Europe" yet.

On a faster, note ... I don't have much hope for the DWing. Just needing specialized wheels and tires makes it hard to find a home, and since its big advantage is efficiency it pretty much needs an endurance format to succeed. No great savings in a sprint format, and doesn't fit any current endurance class, plus Michelin has to make one-off tires ...

it was a great idea and great attempt but until it can be melded into an existing endurance class, it will sit in a warehouse somewhere.

Not surprising recovery is slow with the amount of money he continues to borrow, but I digress.

I don't think we've seen the last of the D-Wing. If there's a protracted hiatus between now and Le Mans next year so be it. However, if they can race at Sebring next year that would excellent.

[gttouring]

I wonder what they are planning in regards to the series