Race Marshal Manning Levels

[Dave Brand]

An interesting little piece on race marshal manning levels in the "News From the MSA" section of the November 2010 issue of "The Marshal".

Commenting on the overmanning at certain meetings the comment is made that "organisers are going to have to start looking at imposing maximums for certain meetings".

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

An interesting little piece on race marshal manning levels in the "News From the MSA" section of the November 2010 issue of "The Marshal".

Yep, saw that too. Sounds good to me....the only thing missing, I think, is that we should make allowances for new marshals at the popular meetings, to encourage people to get started. Something along the lines of.... if you're a trainee and you've done fewer than 4 'popular' meetings, then you're not turned away (notwithstanding safety concerns).

[M Greenslade]

"organisers are going to have to start looking at imposing maximums for certain meetings".

In these days where us old farts are sometimes all there is at a race meeting, then nice problem to have!

Bladders....

[Sparky-steve]

this old chestnut again

i wouldn't like to be the people who decide on who can or can't attend a meeting.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Sparky-steve

I wouldn't like to be the people who decide on who can or can't attend a meeting.

Now that I do agree with.

[lawnmowerman]

ermmm....excuse me....forgive me if i am wrong....? but i thought we were ALL volunteers ? offering our assistance for free....even during these tough times where overtime comes in handy to pay bills etc....but no, i'll go marshalling and give a helping hand.....just a thought....oh and like someone has already said....i wouldnt like to be the one who decides who is marshalling and who is not ? good luck and the way things are going, i am seriously considering renewing my membership for 2011 cos i am fed up with all those who think they are "Special" ! REMEMBER.....WE ARE ALL VOLUNTEERS !

[Woolley]

Not quite sure what kicked that off, but no need to throw your teddies out

An over-manned circuit can be just as, if not more dangerous than, an under-manned one. When those volunteers become a surfeit at certain meetings then a selection criteria is needed and some poor person has to do the selecting. It's done for the GP and for Goodwood, don't see why it shouldn't be the case for certain other meetings.

As long as the criteria is fair and transparent and the unsuccesful volunteers are notified in good time to do something else then there's no reason why there should be any problems.

Happily all the meetings that suffer from this are high on my 'don't want to do them' list, so I can look on it dispassionately.

[PVDA]

Some tracks down here encourage year round support by only offering a position at thier V8Supercar round to those who have done a couple of smaller events in the 12 months prior.

You find there's 20 to a post at the V8's but we're lucky to get two per post at the smaller events by limiting numbers you don't get overcrowding of the posts and it encourages many to make the trip to the smaller stuff as well.

[m1fcf]

Originally Posted by PVDA

You find there's 20 to a post at the V8's but we're lucky to get two per post at the smaller events by limiting numbers you don't get overcrowding of the posts and it encourages many to make the trip to the smaller stuff as well.

And there was us thinking this was a 'British Problem'!!

It is good to hear that marshal numbers are on the up for these bigger meetings, but I do like the approach suggest by PVDA...

Originally Posted by PVDA

some tracks down here encourage year round support by only offering a position at thier V8Supercar round to those who have done a couple of smaller events in the 12 months prior.

...although how this is balanced against the Migratory Marshals who stick to a series and follow it, I am not sure.

Maybe the answer is to say "you can do this series 'X' event if you have done at least three series 'X' in the last 12 months, or have done 'Y' events at the track where 'X' is visiting in the same period" <- seems fair to both the 'local to track' marshals and the 'series following marshals'.

Interestingly, no-one makes any objections/comments to the 'qualifying' that is required for F1 weekends? Why should that be any different to other major series (BTCC, WTCC, FIA events)?

As others have said, and will no doubt say again, it is a tricky one to solve and not a challenge that I wish to take on, but at least we can give it a damn good thrashing on the forum.

[Piglet]

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...highlight=btcc

Just by way of reminder, that's the most recent version of this thread...

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by m1fcf

although how this is balanced against the Migratory Marshals who stick to a series and follow it, I am not sure.

We don't get too many marshals travelling out of state for V8 events although many will do all the rounds in thier home state (here in Victoria we have 3 stand alone V8 rounds plus the F1GP support race).

I have to say a local trackside official is probably better than a series blow in who may know the cars but may not know the local conditions as well as the locals do, after all all cars are the same when they're upside down and on fire

There is an annual migration to events like Bathurst and the Adelaide, Gold Coast & Townsville Street circuits but these events require heaps more trackside officials than a normal "road" course circuits.

[Stack]

Originally Posted by Sparky-steve

i wouldn't like to be the people who decide on who can or can't attend a meeting.

It seems simple to me. The chief marshal knows how many posts there are at the circuit concered and his /her experience knows how many marshals are required to SAFELY occupy the posts. Add to that ONE trainee per post (maybe two if the track area covered by a post is sufficiently large enough) all selected on a first come first served basis and there you have it, a circuit fully and safely manned.

Post manning numbers (and experience) levels are not confined to big meetings. At one meeting in the not too distant past I found myself (an I/O) acting post chief with a course marshal who was asked to flag for the first time and two trainees, one on his first day and the other having done 3 days.
Fortunatly (and thankfully)we only had a few spinners all day.

[HairyDJ]

Yes we are volunteers, but we indicate our availability for a meeting in the hope that we are required and selected. We should never view the volunteering form as a demand for free admittance to an event that we fancy.

I'd like to see the "over-subscribed" meetings turn the numbers to great advantage via training using mentors. This could be offered to all grades looking to understand more about the duties in grades above their current level.
Most folk will step up to IO or PC to help out at a "short" meeting and do their best based on how they've seen others do the job. To have a spare IO or PC who is willing to spend the day standing with a few of us and talk in depth about how and why all of the minutiae of running a post happen as they do would be excellent.
In particular, nowadays we so rarely get the chance to coach / be coached on the finer points of flagging in the live environment. To be able to man the flag point and still have a "flagging god / goddess" standing back to pass on their expertise could improve standards significantly. So often you flag alone and even if manned as a pair, your partner has their own workload and is looking the other way to you & your role.
Finally, at these over-manned meetings, is it only Incident that gets swamped, or do the Specialist duties get equally increased numbers? I've helped out on Pits & Assembly occasionally, but never thought that these meetings are ideal to learn more by shadowing one of the regular crew ......


If you feel hard done by about the marshal selection process, then see how abrupt and demanding the Olympic volunteer site shows their attitude to be!
http://www.london2012.com/get-involv...nt-journey.php
They have publicised that they will have to whittle down the 240,000 applicants to a mere 70,000 places - worse than a one in three chance of getting asked!

[gravel_monkey]

Originally Posted by lawnmowerman

ermmm....excuse me....forgive me if i am wrong....? but i thought we were ALL volunteers ? offering our assistance for free....even during these tough times where overtime comes in handy to pay bills etc....but no, i'll go marshalling and give a helping hand.....just a thought....oh and like someone has already said....i wouldnt like to be the one who decides who is marshalling and who is not ? good luck and the way things are going, i am seriously considering renewing my membership for 2011 cos i am fed up with all those who think they are "Special" ! REMEMBER.....WE ARE ALL VOLUNTEERS !

old thing gettin re-done, no one thinks there special
just another reason why people wont do touring cars as you get there and are linking arms all the way round the track with people you have never seen in yourlife and prob wont see again. as said this can be more dangerous as if something happens you have no were to go

[deley]

Originally Posted by HairyDJ

Yes we are volunteers, but we indicate our availability for a meeting in the hope that we are required and selected. We should never view the volunteering form as a demand for free admittance to an event that we fancy.
..........

Originally Posted by HairyDJ

........
I'd like to see the "over-subscribed" meetings turn the numbers to great advantage via training using mentors. This could be offered to all grades looking to understand more about the duties in grades above their current level.
Most folk will step up to IO or PC to help out at a "short" meeting and do their best based on how they've seen others do the job. To have a spare IO or PC who is willing to spend the day standing with a few of us and talk in depth about how and why all of the minutiae of running a post happen as they do would be excellent.
In particular, nowadays we so rarely get the chance to coach / be coached on the finer points of flagging in the live environment. To be able to man the flag point and still have a "flagging god / goddess" standing back to pass on their expertise could improve standards significantly. So often you flag alone and even if manned as a pair, your partner has their own workload and is looking the other way to you & your role.

...........

Give the man a medal for a constructive view of what could be achieved at "over-subscribed" meetings ... use them as a means to do some very useful on post and even off post training - great idea. After all a key part of being a marshal is not just "being there" but "being there to learn and to teach" ........ we should never stop learning and should always be willing to help teach for the good of marshalling and motorsport in general.

[Paul Newns]

As has been said already, I wouldn't want to be the one doing the selection. Do you only choose circuit regulars as a reward for supporting the smaller meetings, which means marshals wanting to visit other circuits are discouranged because, with respect, travelling hundreds of miles for a smaller, possibly one day meeting is not that attractive for many. Or do you welcome visitors, at the risk of alienating regulars?

There was a time when you only got accepted at a TOCA event if you could do both days. Perhaps that is a reaonable criterion?

The GP and Goodwood are different. The GP requires the most experienced marshals because it is our showcase event. Goodwood doesn't have other regular meetings, although I realise there are sprints, etc.

It's a very difficult balancing act, but some meetings are so oversubscibed that they do border on being dangerous. If a car was to go over the barriers there are too many targets and too few escape routes.

There's also the spectacle of hordes of marshals descending on a car unneccesarily, which looks bad to spectators and TV viewers.

I agree large meetings can be used as training opportunities, utilising experienced marshals to mentor trainees. I have done this myself when there have been three flaggies on post. However, there are only so many trainers that you can use, so this may not completely solve the problem.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by Woolley

An over-manned circuit can be just as, if not more dangerous than, an under-manned one. When those volunteers become a surfeit at certain meetings then a selection criteria is needed and some poor person has to do the selecting. It's done for the GP and for Goodwood, don't see why it shouldn't be the case for certain other meetings.

As long as the criteria is fair and transparent and the unsuccesful volunteers are notified in good time to do something else then there's no reason why there should be any problems.

Precisely.

Plus, working an overmanned circuit is incredibly boring, as there's always somebody else doing your bit. I still haven't gotten over doing a 350 mile round trip at my own expense to what turned out to be a severely overmanned meeting last year, to spend all day flagging the qualis, only to be told to stand down half the time on race day 'cus "we're here now"

(That wasn't actually 'said,' but it may as well have been)

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by Paul Newns

As has been said already, I wouldn't want to be the one doing the selection. Do you only choose circuit regulars as a reward for supporting the smaller meetings, which means marshals wanting to visit other circuits are discouranged because, with respect, travelling hundreds of miles for a smaller, possibly one day meeting is not that attractive for many. Or do you welcome visitors, at the risk of alienating regulars?

Any meeting that's oversubscribed is classified as a 'popular' meeting. At any popular meeting, you first select the people who've done the most 'regular' meetings (regardless of location). Simples!

People who do plenty of clubbie meetings (regardless of which circuit they do it at) are thus 'rewarded' - as lawnmowerman ranted, people who stick to one circuit all the time are NOT any more special than people who do the same number of meetings at differing circuits.

[Woolley]

Since it doesn't concern me, my take of what I think is best for the standard of marshalling on the day first, fairness to the volunteers second. When referring to 'locals' I'm referring to people who regularly attend that circuit for lesser-graded meetings and based on attending a minimim average number of days over 2 years (I'm not going to make the decision on how many that should be! It ought to be low enough to include regular but itinerent people such as me who are lucky enough to be in easy travelling distance of several venues and so don't specialize in one place but who have also marshalled a minimum number of lower graded meetings at other circuits).

All positions. Attendance for all days of the meeting required.

Post Chiefs. 2 per post, favouring Xs first, locals second. A few spares for busy corners and to cover no-shows.

Flags. I wouldn't exceed 3 per post, and even that means 1 person at a time is doing nothing. You could justify 2 plus a few spares to cover no-shows. I'd take experienced graded flaggies first and then those who are actively training for the grade (once it comes back). A high-profile, televised, professional(!) meeting should only use those who have demonstrated ability at this difficult duty. I'd take locals over visitors because you'll always flag better at a place you know.

Incident. I suspect this is where the greatest surplus occurs, and where the greatest risk applies. I'd choose in this order:

1) Number of days in previous/this season
2) Locals - if you regularly attend a circuit it's very irritating to be pushed out when the 'good' stuff comes along.
3) Trainees who signed up at the circuit at which the event occurs, minimum of one trainee per post to ensure everyone gets a chance even if there's plenty under 1) and 2)
4) Other local trainees
5) Other trainees

Specialist roles - grid, pits, assembly. Controversial, this one.
Chief of each section regular to the series due to knowing specific regulations and customs of that series.
Assistant Chief of each section a local to the circuit who knows the peculiarities of the venue.
Others. Can you have too many grid/pits/assembly marshals, as long as they are all willing to do all of the above!

And importantly, applications to be in at the start of the season (possibly except for trainees who've signed up that year and are eligable under the guide above). Notification of acceptance/rejection sent out as soon as possible after deadline. Replacements to be called up from the rejections list where possible.

It'll upset someone, I'm sure, but it's a situation where you can't please everyone. Personally I'd rather work with someone who understands and accepts that in any case!

[The Fat Clerk]

[QUOTE=Woolley;2784433]All positions. Attendance for all days of the meeting required.

Post Chiefs. 2 per post, favouring Xs first, locals second. A few spares for busy corners and to cover no-shows.

Am I on the wrong planet or what? I've been at meetings this year where there haven't been 2 X Observers on the same circuit.

Mind you there will be 3 of us in Hyde Park on sunday morning.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Piglet

Just by way of reminder, that's the most recent version of this thread...

That's a discussion of one specific meeting.

Silly me, I thought it worth a new thread as the debate has been broadened by the MSA stating that the organisers of popular meetings, not just BTCC, are going to have to address the problem.

[Tall Chris]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Since it doesn't concern me, my take of what I think is best for the standard of marshalling on the day first, fairness to the volunteers second. When referring to 'locals' I'm referring to people who regularly attend that circuit for lesser-graded meetings and based on attending a minimim average number of days over 2 years (I'm not going to make the decision on how many that should be! It ought to be low enough to include regular but itinerent people such as me who are lucky enough to be in easy travelling distance of several venues and so don't specialize in one place but who have also marshalled a minimum number of lower graded meetings at other circuits).

All positions. Attendance for all days of the meeting required.

Post Chiefs. 2 per post, favouring Xs first, locals second. A few spares for busy corners and to cover no-shows.

Flags. I wouldn't exceed 3 per post, and even that means 1 person at a time is doing nothing. You could justify 2 plus a few spares to cover no-shows. I'd take experienced graded flaggies first and then those who are actively training for the grade (once it comes back). A high-profile, televised, professional(!) meeting should only use those who have demonstrated ability at this difficult duty. I'd take locals over visitors because you'll always flag better at a place you know.

Incident. I suspect this is where the greatest surplus occurs, and where the greatest risk applies. I'd choose in this order:

1) Number of days in previous/this season
2) Locals - if you regularly attend a circuit it's very irritating to be pushed out when the 'good' stuff comes along.
3) Trainees who signed up at the circuit at which the event occurs, minimum of one trainee per post to ensure everyone gets a chance even if there's plenty under 1) and 2)
4) Other local trainees
5) Other trainees

Specialist roles - grid, pits, assembly. Controversial, this one.
Chief of each section regular to the series due to knowing specific regulations and customs of that series.
Assistant Chief of each section a local to the circuit who knows the peculiarities of the venue.
Others. Can you have too many grid/pits/assembly marshals, as long as they are all willing to do all of the above!

And importantly, applications to be in at the start of the season (possibly except for trainees who've signed up that year and are eligable under the guide above). Notification of acceptance/rejection sent out as soon as possible after deadline. Replacements to be called up from the rejections list where possible.

It'll upset someone, I'm sure, but it's a situation where you can't please everyone. Personally I'd rather work with someone who understands and accepts that in any case!

Unfortunately due to the nature of my work I cannot predict that far ahead. Therefore I would have to apply hoping that I would be free, risking having to pull out at a later date.

As for the all days bit I take your point, but often if I can only get one day (in my case 2 nights) off for a weekend I'll do the Saturday only (for the 1,000kms at Brands I'm doing Friday evening only), maybe we could operate a buddy system so that both days are covered?

I guess you can please some of them all of the time . . . . .

[numbersix]

To throw a further spanner in the works, no one's considered the dreaded Health & Safety aspect.

From that perspective the most experienced/qualified marshals would come first to help save the organisers a possible lawsuit from an injured party (or next of kin of a deceased party) on the grounds that the organisers did not exhibit due care in the selection process.

And this might mean fewer trainees, and that would screw up recruitment and retention, etc., etc.

It is not as simple as it looks and I'm glad I don't have to do it.

Phil

[mattt]

Originally Posted by HairyDJ

...
Finally, at these over-manned meetings, is it only Incident that gets swamped, or do the Specialist duties get equally increased numbers? I've helped out on Pits & Assembly occasionally, but never thought that these meetings are ideal to learn more by shadowing one of the regular crew ......

Nope Pits/startline get swamped too, at Brands for the BTCC there was 31 marshals when other ones i've been at there have been 3(but that wasnt brands) the least i saw there was 7. But in the past we have had people come in from incident and it was quite interesting showing them how to do it

It does mostly seem to depend on the circuit

Originally Posted by Woolley

...
Specialist roles - grid, pits, assembly. Controversial, this one.
Chief of each section regular to the series due to knowing specific regulations and customs of that series.
Assistant Chief of each section a local to the circuit who knows the peculiarities of the venue.
Others. Can you have too many grid/pits/assembly marshals, as long as they are all willing to do all of the above!

...

i think you can personally, since if there are 20 odd people going on to the grid, it isn't particularly interesting since you will only have 1 car to grid up and its much more interesting to grid up at least 4 . also there are only so many exits of the grid and there's enough other people on the grid. its also makes the person whos allocating the grids a major headache

But then again at the GP there are 20 odd startline and 20/30? pit marshals

[David Owen]

All I can say is.......

I WISH