[Official] Japanese GP Race weekend thread

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by wdave0

hold the yellows for a full lap so all drivers have seen the scene and then move equipment.

.... because there are some circumstances when it's okay for drivers to ignore yellow flags, so let's let the drivers look and decide for themselves?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Guinness2702

.... because there are some circumstances when it's okay for drivers to ignore yellow flags, so let's let the drivers look and decide for themselves?

I don't think letting the drivers decide for themselves is a good idea.

[garcon]

Why not? It's their own skins they're saving.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by garcon

Why not? It's their own skins they're saving.

'cus there's also us marshals out there on the line, as well as other drivers who may need our help.

Hands up *any* driver who wants to sit in a burning car for 2 minutes, while the SC is deployed, and the train catches up, with me standing behind the Armco by your car, fire extinguisher in hand saying: "Hang on mate, I'll be there in a couple of minutes. Just got to make sure everybody's behind the SC."

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Guinness2702

'cus there's also us marshals out there on the line, as well as other drivers who may need our help.

Hands up *any* driver who wants to sit in a burning car for 2 minutes, while the SC is deployed, and the train catches up, with me standing behind the Armco by your car, fire extinguisher in hand saying: "Hang on mate, I'll be there in a couple of minutes. Just got to make sure everybody's behind the SC."

Driver trapped in burning car = immediate red flag.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Driver trapped in burning car = immediate red flag.

And what about: driver gets out of car safely and has to watch his/her pride and joy burn, because marshals refuse to extinguish fire and recover car until SC train formed?

[garcon]

Originally Posted by Guinness2702

'cus there's also us marshals out there on the line, as well as other drivers who may need our help.

Good point.

I do think the best forum for agreeing a responsible approach is the drivers. Time and again they have led the way against official intransigence. But by that I mean them getting together to agree a voluntary policy not making it up on track.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Driver trapped in burning car = immediate red flag.

Even if you showed a red flag it takes a short time to bring speed down sufficiently around the circuit to allow safety staff onto racing circuit and confines to do their work.

The present system allows cars to circulate freely and safety workers to begin immediately. Any of the proposed systems are going to lengthen the time before on the spot intervention can begin.

Is this really what people want? Every time you change a process you create a new set of circumstances that are NOT perfect. They work until something happens that is determined to be unacceptable and then a new scheme comes into play. But that will not be perfect either, and one day something will happen that will shock people.
Then we will have another round of changes.
I am not arguing against any change, but simply pointing out that changing the rules may in fact present you with another set of circumstances that will also have flaws in it and that will last until a set of circumstances arises that causes another accident.

Accidents are not caused by one circumstance but by a number of factors coming into play that result in something that results in some sort of injury.

They are somewhat unpredictable and unique in the arrangement of the contributing circumstances. That is why they are accidents, freaks of circumstance, and you will never be able to eliminate all possibility of an accident in motor racing simply because of the nature of motor sport.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I don't think letting the drivers decide for themselves is a good idea.

Ignore.

[chillibowl]

in fairness would any change in SC or yellow flag procedure have made a difference in a race that should have been postponed, made earlier, or outright cancelled on account of weather?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by garcon

Why not? It's their own skins they're saving.

I would have thought the drivers would have had enough on their plates, under a yellow flag situation, without having to make any additional decisions. The yellow flag means slow down, so slow down, it shouldn't be open to driver interpretation.

[wolfhound]

Gary Anderson has been writing in Autosport where readers ask him questions. One question was " slow zones: yes or no? "

He came out totally in favour with the following points.

Use the pit lane speed limiter to control speeds in yellow zones.

There should be also yellow zones in front and behind the incident give three
yellow flag zones for each incident.

He also said any driver not obeying the speed limiter restriction should be disqualified from that race plus the next one.

http://plus.autosport.com/premium/fe...358.1403130801

[eclectic]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

in fairness would any change in SC or yellow flag procedure have made a difference in a race that should have been postponed, made earlier, or outright cancelled on account of weather?

Good point.

TV schedules and the gravy train?

Lethal combination.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by eclectic

Good point.

TV schedules and the gravy train?

Lethal combination.

the rain they got wasn't the height of the typhoon. Remember that the drivers earlier felt it was OK to race. Whiting downplayed Massa's reported screaming for the race to stop, it was nothing of the sort.

So do the ideas of 'the race should never have been run apply'? Probably not.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Even if you showed a red flag it takes a short time to bring speed down sufficiently around the circuit to allow safety staff onto racing circuit and confines to do their work.

The present system allows cars to circulate freely and safety workers to begin immediately. Any of the proposed systems are going to lengthen the time before on the spot intervention can begin.

Is this really what people want? Every time you change a process you create a new set of circumstances that are NOT perfect. They work until something happens that is determined to be unacceptable and then a new scheme comes into play. But that will not be perfect either, and one day something will happen that will shock people.
Then we will have another round of changes.
I am not arguing against any change, but simply pointing out that changing the rules may in fact present you with another set of circumstances that will also have flaws in it and that will last until a set of circumstances arises that causes another accident.

Accidents are not caused by one circumstance but by a number of factors coming into play that result in something that results in some sort of injury.

They are somewhat unpredictable and unique in the arrangement of the contributing circumstances. That is why they are accidents, freaks of circumstance, and you will never be able to eliminate all possibility of an accident in motor racing simply because of the nature of motor sport.

I agree accidents and incidents are unpredictable and often chaotic. But where a serious accident has occurred, the race must be red flagged immediately. Maybe it's worthwhile considering changes to the red flag procedures and the following could be considered at F1 level.

o A red flag can be initiated by any marshall's post, thus saving time in relaying information to race control.
o Red light indicators appear on the dash of every car and drivers must bring their vehicle to a stop [wherever they are on the track] when that happens - alternatively it could automatically put every car into limp mode.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

in fairness would any change in SC or yellow flag procedure have made a difference in a race that should have been postponed, made earlier, or outright cancelled on account of weather?

The argument boils down to; The SC should have been deployed before snatch, because the cars would actually slow down behind the SC. The counter argument is that they should slow down under yellow flags.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

There should be also yellow zones in front and behind the incident give three
yellow flag zones for each incident

Why?

Originally Posted by wolfhound

He also said any driver not obeying the speed limiter restriction should be disqualified from that race plus the next one.

Basically what I've been advocating ... severe penalties (multi-race bans) for drivers who lose control under yellow flags.

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by Guinness2702

Why?

I was just explaining what Gary Anderson said in his reply as not everybody has access to his article.

Basically what I've been advocating ... severe penalties (multi-race bans) for drivers who lose control under yellow flags.

I can see lodgic for 2 yellow flag zones where an incident takes place to close to the boundry of a yellow flag zone or where there is a serious incident that is out of sight of drivers to give them greater warning of what might lie ahead.

I am assuming that with the FIA flag system there is no steady yellow before a double waved like in the old UK system.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

I am assuming that with the FIA flag system there is no steady yellow before a double waved like in the old UK system.

Not automatically, no, but R/C can ask for it (indeed, I have in the past been asked to do just that).

If you look at the "driver tracker" video of Bianchi's incident, you can see that that Lights 8 went yellow, and shortly after, Lights 7 did too. I can only assume that that was asked for by R/C. I've no information about what happened at the flag points.

[wdave0]

It is interesting that during qualifying a driver may not set a fast lap if there's a yellow out but there doesn't seem to be any such rule during a race. Truly, the whole issue here is driver respecting yellows, although there have been cases where there was so much water that everyone was caught out - I've seen a pace car spin (Not F1 but pro).

[bella]

Originally Posted by wdave0

It is interesting that during qualifying a driver may not set a fast lap if there's a yellow out but there doesn't seem to be any such rule during a race.

not f1, but this happens in elms - if you improve a sector whilst there's a yellow out during the race you get a stop go penalty. happened at least twice at estoril at the weekend. if it happens in fp or qualifying then the driver responsible often loses all their times in that session. at one circuit this year someone got a suspended one race ban for it as well.

strangely when there was a big effort during the race to notify teams on the timing screens of a double waved yellow and a car parked on the apex of a corner, going by the sector times it didn't really affect anyone's pace relative to their before and after laps. that was very disappointing, and it would be nice if someone in the press had addressed it with the drivers to see what their reasons were, and then gone after them in print/online. perhaps the excuse would have been to do with it being a relatively not-too-quick corner anyway.

[JABWOA]

Originally Posted by Guinness2702

Not automatically, no, but R/C can ask for it (indeed, I have in the past been asked to do just that).

If you look at the "driver tracker" video of Bianchi's incident, you can see that that Lights 8 went yellow, and shortly after, Lights 7 did too. I can only assume that that was asked for by R/C. I've no information about what happened at the flag points.

Certain panels will be linked in relay by Race Control prior to the start of the weekend. A pre-warning yellow effectively. When they dropped the stationary yellow flag in Australia, the replacement was to have certain points operating in relay. If a yellow is required in such a corner, the previous point will mirror the flags. The flags retain full meanings, so the no passing zone is extended.

Plus, race control can override the panels as needed or instruct the marshals at the post to activate/wave the flags.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by JABWOA

Certain panels will be linked in relay by Race Control prior to the start of the weekend.

Never heard of that one, and I've done lights 3 times now (the first time received a briefing from Charlie). Perhaps they set it up differently at Melbourne to Silverstone?

[JABWOA]

Wouldn't be surprised about that - lots of small blind corners at Melbourne.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

in fairness would any change in SC or yellow flag procedure have made a difference in a race that should have been postponed, made earlier, or outright cancelled on account of weather?

Yes. If Code60 was in effect, there wouldn't be a driver lying in hosptal fighting for his life!