BTCC: should it go to S2000 cars exclusively

[andy_b]

Those with Autosport subsriptions will see a small article saying Alan Gow has dropped strong hints that the BTCC are considering going to a S2000 formula and dropping the BTCC spec car, a review to take place at the end of the season.

So, what do you think?

IMHO:

Pros: More cars available to privateers to purchase, less of this weight issue (although there will still be RWD-FWD issue)

Cons: Likes of Team Dynamics,MG, VXR will have cars that need to be converted or binned

I always thought the current BTCC spec cars were locked until end of 2006. Anyone know any different.

Anyway, vote away

(NOTE: ASAP means from Next Season)

[andy_b]

Havent seen any 05 WTCC racing, but I always found ETCC quite boring to watch, unlike BTCC with much less cars. I'm not sure why that is. It might be the length of the races or maybe the tyres? so I'm not sure if this would lack of excitement would then appear in BTCC.

[Craig]

I really love these loaded polls! I vote no - confirm that BTCC regs will be dropped at end of 2006 in favour of WTCC regs but you can't just change the regs on a whim like that - what about those cars that are still running in the championship to BTCC regs? People don't want to see 12 or 14 cars on the grid this year well what would they say to 6 or 8 WTCC spec cars in 2006??

[andy_b]

Hi Craig, According to the article on Autosport, it implies that the change could be next year, which doesnt make sense as I'm sure the original regs were "locked in stone" until the end of 2006, so I put 2 Yes options. If you dont agree with any of the those, then its a no. I agree though, it would really screw the teams if they went back on their word (which I'm sure they wont) for 2006 season

Maybe a transition period is required in which privateers could run a BTCC spec car for 2007-2008 season (TD wouldnt mind )

[BootsOntheSide]

The Independents Cup seems to have disappeared for this year without any real comment, which is a shame, but perhaps there's no need for it in a series with only 6 works cars.

Considering that the UK has no real motoring industry of its own these days, it probably doesn't need its own regulations. We should stick with teh shroter races that the BTCC has, but opening it up properly to Alfas and BMWs might be a good idea. The only problem is that the manufacturer interest will always gravitate to the championship with mroe marketing pull (in this case the WTCC, as you're reaching far more people), so the BTCC might evolve towards privateers in the near future either way.

[TerryC]

Sorry to go a bit OTT, would you guys kindly explain the main differences between the Super 2000 as opposed to "standard" spec cars we see in the BTCC/WTCC series? Is Super Touring the same as S2000?

[andy_b]

S2000 class = essentially WTCC cars and includes the SEAT's and Alfa in BTCC
BTCC class = Should really call that BTCT class, that runs in the UK. Some of the parts are the same on all cars such as brakes etc (I assume this reduces costs?) and allows for more bodywork modification under the axle line.

The old SuperTouring regs were more laxed, allowed more mods and hence the budgets got out of control

[Ayjay]

I'm afraid, AndyB, that this whole poll and discussion on the subject is rather flawed from the outset.

If you read the Autosport article properly, (below) it relates to changing the regulations from 2007 .....which is when it has always been said they will be reviewed/changed and, again, it has always also been said that if they change then they will likely change to S2000.

Sorry, but there is nothing new here to discuss or poll.

Autosport/Atlas:

"BTCC boss Alan Gow has dropped the strongest hint yet that the British championship will adopt WTCC-style Super 2000 regulations from 2007.

Only 13 cars have raced in this season's British championship, with only eight cars built to BTC Touring regulations. The championship permits Super 2000 cars such as the SEAT Toledo Curpa by allowing them to run lighter than the BTC Touring cars.

By contrast this season's WTCC has a healthy 33-car entry.

"We will take a view towards the end of this year," Gow told Autosport-Atlas. "But if things keep going the way they are, we will adopt Super 2000 entirely.

"At the moment it looks a sure bet and there should be no reason for it not to happen."

[andy_b]

that told me Sorry, I have to say I didnt see the 2007 bit

but aside from that, the discussion is still relevant. i.e: In 2007 Do forum members think BTCT should be dropped?

[Hazard]

Originally Posted by Ayjay

...By contrast this season's WTCC has a healthy 33-car entry.

[/I]

Said it on another thread...inflation! Only the Italian championship bumped it up to 33. Much the same happened at Spa & Oschersleben last year with the DPM included.

(Can I assume then, that the Italian championship is in trouble, as if the WTCC has 26 cars otherwise, it's only got 7 cars!).

Of course the DPM only has 6 this year, so if the BTCC merged for one round, we'd get a nice 39 car field!

Anyway...I'm all for the BTCC rules dying out when they've been used up...but if we said S2000 from 2006 right now, Dynamics & VXR would probably dissappear in an angry cloud since they spent so much developing the Astra Sport Hatch / Integra with a safe two years worth of competition time left.

In 2007, bring on Super2000, and see second hand Lacetti's & Focus's flood our series, as Vauxhall prepare a far more appropriate car to Super 2000 specs (shame they haven't got anything outside of the Monaro, and that's too big)...but even with our complicated balancing out of BTC vs S2000 spec cars, there are still the issues the S2000 cars have with sequential gearboxes & FWD/RWD etc. which will keep things complicated and 'unfair' for some.

[andy_b]

Originally Posted by Ayjay

By contrast this season's WTCC has a healthy 33-car entry.

might be a healthy say 26 car grid, but is it as entertaining as BTCC's 11-14? as I mentioned in the first post, not sure why that is. if its the drivers (doubt it), the softer tyres, the race lengths, Europsorts coverage or something else.

[touringlegend]

I would like to see the change to Super 2000 as soon as possible. Still allow the BTCC cars to race, but have them taking the weight penalty's. Much the opposite to the way it is now.

I'm not sure how much of a difference it would make, I would like to believe Super 2000 manufacturers are holding back because of the equalisation factor at the moment. It would be hard to change the rules 'against' the likes of Vauxhall and TD, but if for example (an outrageous one) BMW, Alfa Romeo, Ford, Peugeot, Honda etc were wanting to join could you not not change the rules ?

[Super Tourer]

There will be a natural order of things.

By 2007 I can't imagine that many competitve BTC spec cars will still exist, whereas there will be a good supply of ex works S2000 cars of various vintage.

S2000 it is (IMO), I can't see how a set of isolated regs would be of any benefit to the future of the BTCC.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by touringlegend

I would like to see the change to Super 2000 as soon as possible. Still allow the BTCC cars to race, but have them taking the weight penalty's. Much the opposite to the way it is now.

I think that's the way to go.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by Hazard

(Can I assume then, that the Italian championship is in trouble, as if the WTCC has 26 cars otherwise, it's only got 7 cars!).

Some cars were entered in both series so not a straight 26/7 split. Zanardi currently leads the Italian championship.

Originally Posted by andy_b

might be a healthy say 26 car grid, but is it as entertaining as BTCC's 11-14?

If you're asking Ayjay that I think we confidently predict his answer
On the basis of Silverstone (which is the only WTCC I've seen so far), IMO yes it definately is as entertaining. Maybe the TV coverage doesn't help, certainly there's been suggestions in another thread about that. As I've said elsewhere I'm sure the lack of repair time between races doesn't help.

[rdjones]

From what I saw yesterday I would say, Yes, but not before the current regs run out as people like VX and TD have spent a lot of money devloping new cars etc.

I also like the idea that andy_b came up with of having a transitional period is required in which privateers could run a BTCC spec car for 2007-2008 season, which means that you are going to have a far few privateers on the grid and if the rules are setup correctly that could see them battling for overall honnors.

[andy_b]

Originally Posted by rdjones

I also like the idea that andy_b came up with of having a transitional period is required in which privateers could run a BTCC spec car for 2007-2008 season, which means that you are going to have a far few privateers on the grid and if the rules are setup correctly that could see them battling for overall honnors.

I think that would be fair. As a team entering BTCC, its a massive jump in resources from a Clio, SEAT or Brit Car team so a transition period, would help manufacture teams like VXR/888 or WSR sell their cars on and would help Indies (although TD Doesnt need help ) get on the ladder and get a potentially cheaper car. You have to support the lower rungs of the sport for it to grow

Redshoes- Didnt need to Ask Alan, I think I'd know his answer to. The fact remains, when I was in the UK, I'd sit down and watch a BTCC afternoon, but wouldnt sit down and watch the old ETCC coverage. My only concern about the S2000 class is the quality of racing that the E/WTCC sometimes doesnt have. The subject of poor Eurosport coverage has cropped up on SEATCupra.net recently as well. The ITV coverage is very good in comparsion and has a better commentator than Mr Allen (hee hee!)

[Kicking-back]

Originally Posted by rdjones

I also like the idea that andy_b came up with of having a transitional period is required in which privateers could run a BTCC spec car for 2007-2008 season, which means that you are going to have a far few privateers on the grid and if the rules are setup correctly that could see them battling for overall honnors.

It would defeat the point, in my opinion.

That's largely no different to now.

[rdjones]

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

It would defeat the point, in my opinion.

That's largely no different to now.

I can see what you are saying, but I would have it that if you are a works/manufacturer backed team then you have to run to S2000 rules and the indy runners can run to S2000 or to the current BTCC rules.

[redshoes]

If you allow independents to continue with BTCT cars you'll still have the same equivilency problems you have now. It would make sense to revert S2000-spec cars back to FIA international limits which means adding ballast to BTCT cars. Can you see Vauxhall and SEAT being happy when Team Dynamics or WSR are consitantly quicker using older cars.

[Silk Cut Jaguar]

As much as I prefer the cars in BTC spec, the sooner the BTCC jumps to an all S2000 spec series the better for everybody in the long run really.

[N I Tram]

So you've got a series with 14 cars, you want to boost the entry, and you do taht by banning 6 of them???????

No matter which rules you pass, Alfa and BMW are unlikely to run a BTCC programme. For Alfa especially their UK market is small, and both have multiple WTCC squads already. SEAT have proved that you can get a car to be competitive against the BTCT cars, even without massive investment. The climate is tough for potential Indies, although a weight break allowing the RWD BMWs to be reasonably competitive might help, it doesn't fund cars in itself. There's a good supply of BTCT cars available anyway.

[JJ Jet Plane]

Not sure if any of these are the right answer. Doesn't history show that, whenever there's a thriving World/European championship, the national championships suffer? If you look back to 1985-88, when there was a strong ETCC/WTCC, the BTCC was utter rubbish. Then when the ETCC/WTCC were killed off the national series in Britain, Italy etc all began to thrive. Right now we have a massively strong WTCC and all the national 2-litre series (except Denmark and possibly Sweden) are struggling.

I think this a reflection that we have a pool of quality drivers/teams/manufacturers involved in the sport but that they can never all be involved in everything at the same time.

It's the same as European F3 vs British F3. Euro is strong at the moment and British is struggling, but you wouldn't want to bet on the same situation existing in a couple of years' time.

[BootsOntheSide]

I think those last two posts have hit on the essential truth of the situation - when there's an international series, it always has an effect on the other championships. As well as drivers, manufacturers and teams, there is a limited amount of moeny to go round - if funding wasn't an issue there could reasonably be a 20-car BTCC grid, with drivers like Reid, Chilton, Hughes (Warren and Jason), Morrison, O'Neill et al all in action, and teams like GA and Barwell able to compete. Comapnies don't consider motor racing to be a good form of promotion these days, rightly or wrongly.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by N I Tram

There's a good supply of BTCT cars available anyway.

There is?
A few old shape Astras, a couple of MGs and a couple of Civics. Most of which have no more than a year or two useful life left. Hardly a plentify supply.