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Old 2 Feb 2011, 10:04 (Ref:2824428)   #1
WapFlap
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On-board camera question

Does the TV camera on top of the car create downforce? All the teams have the camera on top of the rollbar, but Mercedes put it more to the back of the car. Does this gain a little downforce or is it more weight-distribution related?

http://www.autosport.com/gallery/photo.php/id/13267166
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Old 2 Feb 2011, 10:11 (Ref:2824434)   #2
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The cameras are supposed to be aero-neutral.
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Old 2 Feb 2011, 10:22 (Ref:2824436)   #3
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The cameras are supposed to be aero-neutral.
But make good turbulators!

Device for improving airflow over a wing.
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Old 2 Feb 2011, 10:59 (Ref:2824460)   #4
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Here's one to add to this thread:

Will the on-boards be HD this season? I remember they tested out some HD on-boards last year and they were noteably clearer, despite being pumped through to SD.

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Old 2 Feb 2011, 12:51 (Ref:2824503)   #5
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Here's one to add to this thread:

Will the on-boards be HD this season? I remember they tested out some HD on-boards last year and they were noteably clearer, despite being pumped through to SD.

Selby
Nope.

Just the TV cameras are HD for the moment, on-boards are not.
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Old 2 Feb 2011, 13:00 (Ref:2824510)   #6
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That's a shame. Any idea why not?

They tested them last year/year before and they worked a treat!!

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Old 2 Feb 2011, 13:08 (Ref:2824515)   #7
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That's a shame. Any idea why not?
I believe there isn't enough free radio spectrum available on the FOM frequencies for every car to have an HD camera. They need a big chunk of frequency to carry the rather larger data stream (as compared to SD) and the band they currently use isn't big enough.
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Old 2 Feb 2011, 13:10 (Ref:2824516)   #8
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Bugger lol Thanks for the answer.

It does raise the question then:
Why can NASCAR do it..? They have much more cars than F1 runs. Christ, they've even done 3D!!!

Selby (an owner for a HD 3D TV...)
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Old 2 Feb 2011, 13:24 (Ref:2824519)   #9
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But make good turbulators!

Device for improving airflow over a wing.
Would this really help to improve the airflow? Quite a simple but brilliant solution then
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Old 2 Feb 2011, 13:35 (Ref:2824528)   #10
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Gigawave do an HD T-Bar camera, which is down scalable. I think it was this that was tested last year. Gigawave
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Old 2 Feb 2011, 15:07 (Ref:2824571)   #11
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It does raise the question then:
Why can NASCAR do it..? They have much more cars than F1 runs. Christ, they've even done 3D!!!
They don't travel outside North America (usually) so they only have the FCC to cope with, and one would assume they have a big chunk of spectrum which is clear all across the USA.
FOM have to deal with 20+ different national or regional regulatory authorities so have a tiny slab of radio spectrum which is guaranteed to work internationally.

They'll work it out soon enough.
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Old 3 Feb 2011, 11:05 (Ref:2824985)   #12
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Decent compression would sort out much of the bandwidth problem - probably not going to get as many channels as SD though. Sticking with 720p would be fine for that sort of use and gets bandwidth right down.

Chips to do real time H264 at 720p/1080p/30 are easily available, quality camera sensors are cheap as chips for the relatively low HD resolutions (compared with stills), 802n (Wifi) has quite a bit of bandwidth and has no problem with licencing, but may be problems with range reception on a circuit. Put an SD card in the camera to record the whole race even if you are not transmitting all the time. Can also use it to cache and download prerecorded footage when bandwidth is available.

Not an expensive thing to do......
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Old 3 Feb 2011, 11:32 (Ref:2824995)   #13
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For a sport that's literally loaded with money, I just find it rather perculiar...

I mean is this more a case of they don't have a good body of people dealing with future broadcast technologies perhaps? Or is it simply being tight-fisted?

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Old 3 Feb 2011, 11:46 (Ref:2825003)   #14
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It all depends how Bernie will deal with this to make a huge profit. That's the main problem.
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Old 3 Feb 2011, 13:05 (Ref:2825060)   #15
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It all depends how Bernie will deal with this to make a huge profit. That's the main problem.
I think you are spot on - there are no technical reasons as far as I can tell, so it must be down to money - BE wants to make as much money as possible, so perhaps is waiting for more people to get HD broadcast to the home (which will happen in UK as FreeviewHD becomes more popular - although many have HD TV, few in comparison have HD receivers.

Once he gets critical mass, and the viewers really start to demand HD, he can then bump the prices. Until that point why spend the money.

Although as someone mentioned to me yesterday - he's 80 years old and hasn't enough time left to spend all the money he has now, so why he wants to make even more is odd - just a power trip I guess.
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Old 3 Feb 2011, 13:11 (Ref:2825064)   #16
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Would it be possible to develop a 3D onboard camera setup? I was just thinking that that is what would be needed to have F1 in 3D because 3D isn't suited to lots of quick cuts. Something like that F1 In Cinema idea that happened in 3D would be absolutely awesome. Monaco or Singapore in 3D in a cinema would be absolutely mindblowing.
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Old 3 Feb 2011, 16:52 (Ref:2825221)   #17
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Although the money aspect is important (and isn't to be discounted) please bear in mind that at a GP there are hundreds of requirements for radio frequencies. One look at OFCOM, the RA and JFMG websites shows the complexity of assigning frequencies and the tiny blocks that are available for major event usage - and that's just in the UK.

You can't just go and add yet another device on yet another frequency, because you'll cripple something else nearby.

With regards to use of WiFi - there would be far too much chop/change between access points around the circuit, which would render any system using WiFi at that speed practically useless. I don't know what frequency or power the onboards use (and it'll be tricky to find it) but they'll be transmitting back to a single receiver somewhere fairly central, like the car telemetry systems do.

I'm nowhere near being an expert at this subject but I'd give FOM a little bit of leeway here; the regulatory folks are all over large sports events like a rash to make sure nobody misbehaves. They'll get there in the end.

And on the compression aspect above - basic data rate for HD over SD is 8 times as large. Even compressed, it's still 8 times as large (they'll use the same compression). That needs a much bigger chunk of the available pie, and I dare say team radio, telemetry and critical comms come first.
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Old 4 Feb 2011, 14:00 (Ref:2825678)   #18
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And on the compression aspect above - basic data rate for HD over SD is 8 times as large. Even compressed, it's still 8 times as large (they'll use the same compression).
Not strictly true. Even though the resolution has increased, with 8 times as much data (actually, 720p is about 4 times as much, 1080p about 8), areas of moving image that are similar are still proportionally the same size, this means that the motion based compression can be more effective. Not sure of the exact ratio though, and the guy I would normally ask isn't in the office! And compression tech is improving all the time of course (there is some other sneaky stuff you can do to reduce bandwidth - can't comment on that!). Even now the H264 format has features in for compression that mostly are not used - implement those and things get even better. However, it's really difficult stuff to do in real time, but not beyond the realms of possibility.

With regard to another comment above about 3D - no problem to use that, but bandwidth requirements go up depending on what resolution/framerate you want.
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Old 10 Feb 2011, 20:43 (Ref:2829308)   #19
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How about putting high-definition cameras on some cars, i.e. Ferrari, McLaren, Red Bull and Mercedes?
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Old 11 Feb 2011, 08:03 (Ref:2829505)   #20
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How about putting high-definition cameras on some cars, i.e. Ferrari, McLaren, Red Bull and Mercedes?
I'd want them on the bad cars. Get to see the drivers truly muscling their junk cars around the track, trying to make them go faster.
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Old 11 Feb 2011, 12:48 (Ref:2829617)   #21
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My vote goes for HRT then.
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Old 12 Feb 2011, 00:32 (Ref:2829908)   #22
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Would it be possible to develop a 3D onboard camera setup? I was just thinking that that is what would be needed to have F1 in 3D because 3D isn't suited to lots of quick cuts. Something like that F1 In Cinema idea that happened in 3D would be absolutely awesome. Monaco or Singapore in 3D in a cinema would be absolutely mindblowing.
You can see both Singapore and Monaco or indeed any Grand Prix in 3D.

All you need is a general admission ticket and transport to the circuit, and Bob's your uncle!
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