[BTCC] Round 7,8 and 9 Thruxton 2018

[Bramzel]

If you're looking for a reason why Plato would be back next year just look at every BTCC related thread on this forum and which driver is most discussed... There's no such thing as bad publicity

[S griffin]

I seriously doubt Plato will be back, some forum on a website makes no difference, it’s what happens on track that matters

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I think BMR will stay, even if it’s without factory support, but there’s no gurantee of a seat for Sutton. I can’t see him going to Europe or Australia, I don’t think he’s ready for that. His heart is in Britain

I don't think it's the explanation. Theoretically, going to WTCR and getting a paid seat would be 'easier' than paying for a seat in BTCC. Moving to Australia is not really possible I believe (but enduro drive in 2019? Why not) but he's already proved himself as a really talented driver, I can't see a reason why he shouldnt be picked by some WTCR team. Nevertheless, I'd still be happy to see him in a competitive BTCC team.

[S griffin]

I just think it might be a little early in his career and is there a seat for him in WTCR? I can’t see him in Aussies, except for a possible enduro drive, but even that could be unlikely. I think he’ll stay in the BTCC for now, no sign of him wanting to move

[luckn002]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I think he’ll [Sutton] stay in the BTCC for now, no sign of him wanting to move

The impression that I got from various articles after he resigned for this year was that he had a very good look at the options avaliable. He strikes me as someone who wants to move further up the motorsport ladder compared to others who see the BTCC as their dream. If he can't get a top seat next year i.e. WSR, Dynamics, Speedworks I think he'll jump ship. Personally I can see him in GTs and his talent is far from stopping him racing in Aussie Supercars and he seemed very impressed when he tested out there.

Again though these are my perceptions and have no other reasoning beyond that

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

He can always go and complete his Le Mans dream.

I'm more disappointed that Sutton doesn't seem to have the car to fight to retain his title with. The lad is an astounding talent and it's a shame that having just shown the world (certainly the UK) what he can do, he's now unable to keep showing us!

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Whilst that is all true, aren't the RWD cars 30kg heavier this year? (plus any additional performance balancing measures that aren't made public).

If that's true, then what about the other RWD cars? BMW haven't also lost ground to the rest of the grid.

[AdrianM]

Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull

I'm more disappointed that Sutton doesn't seem to have the car to fight to retain his title with. The lad is an astounding talent and it's a shame that having just shown the world (certainly the UK) what he can do, he's now unable to keep showing us!

Way of the motorsport world I'm afraid. Talent isn't enough to get the best seats or even stay in the sport.

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by redshoes

If that's true, then what about the other RWD cars? BMW haven't also lost ground to the rest of the grid.

Yes it has.

At this point last season, the BMWs were 3rd, 4th and 12th in the championship, and all three drivers had won at least one race.

They are currently 5th, 11th and 16th with no wins.

They've probably fallen further than Subaru, who (excluding Cole) were 8th, 23rd and 30th at this point last season and are now 9th, 30th and 32nd.


There's a perception that Subaru, and particularly Sutton and Plato are having a much worse season than last year. And yet Plato is only four points behind where he was a year ago and Sutton only seven points behind.

And if you look at their scores relative to the championship leaders, Sutton is currently 41 points behind. At this point last season he was 69 points behind.

So while Subaru's engine woes are causing them trouble, and they will need to achieve better reliability over the next few races, the fact that all the cars and drivers are so evenly matched means they aren't out of the championship yet.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by sceptic

Yes it has.

At this point last season, the BMWs were 3rd, 4th and 12th in the championship, and all three drivers had won at least one race.

They are currently 5th, 11th and 16th with no wins.

They've probably fallen further than Subaru, who (excluding Cole) were 8th, 23rd and 30th at this point last season and are now 9th, 30th and 32nd.

you can’t compare. this year WSR have had more technical and other issues than at this stage last year.

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

you can’t compare. this year WSR have had more technical and other issues than at this stage last year.

I can compare, and I did.
Subaru have also had more technical issues than at this stage last year.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by sceptic

Yes it has.

At this point last season, the BMWs were 3rd, 4th and 12th in the championship, and all three drivers had won at least one race.

We aren't talking about champion position, we are talking about lap times.

All three WSR cars were quicker in qualifying this year vs last year, in Turkington's case significantly so. Lap times are generally quicker this year, and WSR have more than kept up with that, Subaru haven't.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by redshoes

We aren't talking about champion position, we are talking about lap times.

All three WSR cars were quicker in qualifying this year vs last year, in Turkington's case significantly so. Lap times are generally quicker this year, and WSR have more than kept up with that, Subaru haven't.

exactly right.
subaru are showing their lack of development, lack of testing and change of engine tuner. everyone has lifted their game but they haven’t.

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by redshoes

We aren't talking about champion position, we are talking about lap times.

All three WSR cars were quicker in qualifying this year vs last year, in Turkington's case significantly so. Lap times are generally quicker this year, and WSR have more than kept up with that, Subaru haven't.

So the WSR cars are faster than they were last year. It's not doing them any good is it?

You win championships by scoring more points than everyone else, and WSR aren't doing that any more than Subaru are right now.

[S griffin]

WSR may have improved, but not by enough. They have been overtaken by others, like Vauxhall. Same with Subaru

[peebee2]

In a BOP formula like NGTC there’s always going to be winners and losers from year to year and circuit to circuit.

Right now the big winner is the Astra which has a clear advantage, doubtless to be eradicated by a boost adjustment next time.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by peebee2

In a BOP formula like NGTC there’s always going to be winners and losers from year to year and circuit to circuit.

Right now the big winner is the Astra which has a clear advantage, doubtless to be eradicated by a boost adjustment next time.

no it won’t.
boost adjustments are done by engine type, not by car type.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

no it won’t.
boost adjustments are done by engine type, not by car type.

You’re being rather naive there.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

no it won’t.
boost adjustments are done by engine type, not by car type.

Except when the organisers decide they wish to do otherwise:

Regulation 1.11.2.a - The throttle body size and/or restrictor and/or the maximum permitted rpm and/or maximum permitted turbo boost of individual cars may be subject to review and validation at any time during the Championship by the Administrator, who may implement a variation by way of a Bulletin issued by the Co-ordinator giving a minimum of 24 hours notice.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by peebee2

You’re being rather naive there.

no I’m not. it’s a fact.
if a boost adjustment is made to an engine then all cars using the same engine have the same.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Except when the organisers decide they wish to do otherwise:

Regulation 1.11.2.a - The throttle body size and/or restrictor and/or the maximum permitted rpm and/or maximum permitted turbo boost of individual cars may be subject to review and validation at any time during the Championship by the Administrator, who may implement a variation by way of a Bulletin issued by the Co-ordinator giving a minimum of 24 hours notice.

they have never used that regulation in relation to cars using the same engine.

they have never, for example, changed the boost on one cars TOCA engine without all cars using that same TOCa engine having the same adjustment.

[Sodemo]

The one thing I think this year is that BMW (and Subaru?) won't have anywhere near the advantage at Oulton Park / Croft / Knockhill over the FWD cars. If you compare the "jump" the cars were getting out of the tight corners in 2015-2016 and then compare it to 2017, the results are pretty conclusive. Before they could gain 2-4 metres on the exit, now the exit speeds seem pretty similar.

One other thing ive noticed is that the BMW's seem unable to keep their rear tyres in good condition. Around two-thirds distance they just drop away, however the Subaru's didnt seem to suffer the same fate (in 2017).

[porsche962fan]

is the BOP done just once this year ???

cos then maybe you can assume that the likes of Dynamics are sandbagging to not get another boost cut and they fully unleash it after summer break as part of the"car development"

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

no I’m not. it’s a fact.
if a boost adjustment is made to an engine then all cars using the same engine have the same.

That you know about...

Do you really think a VW CC, an Audi A4 and a Honda Civic all with the same engines would lap so closely??

Sorry if that spoils your romance.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

they have never used that regulation in relation to cars using the same engine.

they have never, for example, changed the boost on one cars TOCA engine without all cars using that same TOCa engine having the same adjustment.

I'm not so sure of that - in 2012 they made boost adjustments on a model-by-model basis

Sam Tordoff said this in 2013, at a time when there was a different boost figure between cars running the Swindon Engine:
'Boost levels are determined from a rolling average of the two previous rounds and apply to models rather than to a single team'.

For the 2015 season, when they reviewed the boost adjustment process - a base was set for each car/engine type. This assessed the car and engine in combination, not as independent units.

The resultant regulation from 2015 was worded as:

'1.11.2.a. The throttle body size and/or restrictor and/or the maximum permitted rpm and/or maximum permitted turbo boost of individual cars may be subject to review and validation after round 9 of the Championship and/or subsequently at any further time during the Championship by the
Administrator, who may implement a variation by way of a Bulletin issued by the Co-ordinator giving a minimum of 24 hours notice'

Which they then did during that season, and boost adjustments were again made on a car-by-car basis, regardless of engine type fitted.

I also wouldn't take the fact that a regulation has not been used in the past, as a reason why it won't be used in the future. Until 2017, they had never used a rule that applied a CoG adjustment (AFAIK) - but the performance of one car model made them consider that as an option.