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Old 16 Jun 2019, 22:16 (Ref:3912305)   #7001
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helgi should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridhelgi should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridhelgi should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I know there're 1 or 2 fans who think the same about BoP and other "oblige" stuff in modern racing (but nobody can explain how it was possible to have thousands of fans at the grandstands without any BoP just 20-30 years ago), especially after 3 or 4 manufacturers said that they're going to step into "hypercars", but I'll write it here.
While fans who still do remember real (unBoPped) racing do not express their minds loudly and stop watching this at least for a year, racing authorities are going to transform the last bits of sports into stupid show. If there would have been a group of fans who write some sort of an open letter to FIA or ACO or other big bosses I'll be there and will be one of those who stop watching any kind of this soap opera. I'll be naive enough to think that some drop in spectators' numbers should put an idea into authorities minds: "something goes wrong". But, at least, I'll do my best trying to change the situation.
And I do not care what do the manufacturers and their effective managers in ACO think about it today and how do they see future racing. It's not them watching racing. It's me who is watching and I do not want to be forced to watch "scripted" racing, and I do not want to find bits of positive in this load of marketing stuff they put onto track.

It's clear that racing is ruled not by enthusiasts today. They have already taken away a superb fan-based and advert-free timing from Le Mans. It was impossible to watch the race without it.

It's not a sin to ignore a season or two and concentrate your time onto domestic racing and club events. All in all it all started from that type of racing, and maybe it's time to reinvent autosports. Yes, it all sounds funny but something must have been done.
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Old 16 Jun 2019, 22:50 (Ref:3912315)   #7002
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Technical question: anyone know the approx. wheelbase of the Aston Martin Valkyrie or Toyota GR Super Sport? Am I right in thinking that the wheelbase of the LMP1 hypercars could be quite a bit shorter than the current LMP1 cars?
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Old 16 Jun 2019, 23:51 (Ref:3912326)   #7003
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I think in 2 years time McLaren will have moved from considering if they have a future in LMP1 to really thinking hard about doing it.


McLaren to decide on WEC Hypercar programme by end of summer
https://www.crash.net/le-mans/news/9...mme-end-summer

F1 2021 overhaul “opportune timing” for McLaren hypercar
https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/...iming/4474949/

Both links from Friday-Saturday.

But at least there is again talk. The last news bit might have been about 6 months ago when McLaren or Brown ruled out participating in year 1.
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Old 17 Jun 2019, 06:54 (Ref:3912363)   #7004
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When do the new WEC rules apply?

I have avoided visiting Le Mans for the last 2 years, waiting for more competition to evolve at the head of the field - does anyone know when the new hypercars will be racing? Will LMP1 be a thing of the past come LM 2020, or will we get a repeat of 2019? Thanks!
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Old 17 Jun 2019, 11:02 (Ref:3912405)   #7005
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I don't get this optional hybrid system? What is the benefit in investing in hybrid system when performance will be equalised with non-hybrid? And from the other POV, if hybrid has certain benefits why would anyone bother with non-hybrid?

The most funny thing is the fact that latest production hypercars all come with the hybrid system, but for racing only one has the guts to do it. What is the catch?
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Old 17 Jun 2019, 11:05 (Ref:3912406)   #7006
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I know there're 1 or 2 fans who think the same about BoP and other "oblige" stuff in modern racing (but nobody can explain how it was possible to have thousands of fans at the grandstands without any BoP just 20-30 years ago)
Others on this forum are much more knowledgeable than me on the history of the sport, but if you will forgive my relative ignorance, here's some of thew things that have changed in those 20-30 years:

Concern about emissions and climate change (and consequent regulation) have dramatically changed the way manufacturers market and present their cars.

Cutting-edge motor racing technology is extremely complicated and thus eye-wateringly expensive (hybrids, electronics). This also makes it much harder for customer/small teams to thrive.

Manufacturers are now selling to markets that barely existed 30 years ago (China, India etc) and the expectations and demands of those markets are very different to the mature western markets.

At the same time car ownership in those mature markets has stagnated and various economic, social, regulatory and technology pressures have created a perfect storm of woe in which spending $100m a year to win Le Mans makes no business sense.

Consolidation of car brands into a handful of mega-corporations reduces the pool for each form of motor racing (eg why would VAG pitch two or three of its brands against each other where only one can win?).

Sportscar makers can now get significant publicity and kudos from making supercars which are only ever sold to rich people because of the coverage available from the internet (eg Valkyrie, P1) without the need or expense of entering them into races they might not win.

Those same sportscar manufacturers make a profit selling GT3 and GT4 cars to customers, spending a small additional amount on supporting professional teams at big events, turning them into de-facto factory squads at a fraction of the cost (in fact almost certainly at a profit given the free marketing).

What did I miss?
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Old 17 Jun 2019, 11:16 (Ref:3912407)   #7007
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Originally Posted by Anyopenroad View Post
Others on this forum are much more knowledgeable than me on the history of the sport, but if you will forgive my relative ignorance, here's some of thew things that have changed in those 20-30 years:

Concern about emissions and climate change (and consequent regulation) have dramatically changed the way manufacturers market and present their cars.

Cutting-edge motor racing technology is extremely complicated and thus eye-wateringly expensive (hybrids, electronics). This also makes it much harder for customer/small teams to thrive.

Manufacturers are now selling to markets that barely existed 30 years ago (China, India etc) and the expectations and demands of those markets are very different to the mature western markets.

At the same time car ownership in those mature markets has stagnated and various economic, social, regulatory and technology pressures have created a perfect storm of woe in which spending $100m a year to win Le Mans makes no business sense.

Consolidation of car brands into a handful of mega-corporations reduces the pool for each form of motor racing (eg why would VAG pitch two or three of its brands against each other where only one can win?).

Sportscar makers can now get significant publicity and kudos from making supercars which are only ever sold to rich people because of the coverage available from the internet (eg Valkyrie, P1) without the need or expense of entering them into races they might not win.

Those same sportscar manufacturers make a profit selling GT3 and GT4 cars to customers, spending a small additional amount on supporting professional teams at big events, turning them into de-facto factory squads at a fraction of the cost (in fact almost certainly at a profit given the free marketing).

What did I miss?
Both of those, plus the large cash pools from cigarette companies are gone. Was a source for both teams and series to build cars and race purses. As that and alcohol sponsorship dwindled AND the bleeding edge became infinite more expensive running a race team became the purview of the marketing guys to sell it as advertising and burn that money. Add in the fact that in most mature car markets car ownership, license holding and interest in what makes a car go is dropping precipitously and you have few new fans to replace the older ones.

The fact there are multiple, at least 5 I've seen commercials for, apps you can buy a car through shows people don't have that connection with their car beyond the means of conveyance. Buying a used car without having ever seen it, test drove it or knowing anything about it? Maybe a good classic from a reputable broker, but a used Accord, Maxima, Fusion/Mondeo??
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Old 17 Jun 2019, 12:31 (Ref:3912417)   #7008
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MagVanisher should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridMagVanisher should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Say, I heard that ACO/FIA have managed to finalize the hypercar regulations for September 2020. Now, I wonder if they'll allow Class 1 cars (GT500/DTM) to compete in the WEC/24 Hours of Le Mans?
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Old 17 Jun 2019, 12:53 (Ref:3912419)   #7009
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Say, I heard that ACO/FIA have managed to finalize the hypercar regulations for September 2020. Now, I wonder if they'll allow Class 1 cars (GT500/DTM) to compete in the WEC/24 Hours of Le Mans?
That does bring up a good point, could that be modified or run as is within the rules as we know them but a LOT to be cleared up first. Could be an easier path for a privateer to get in the race.
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Old 17 Jun 2019, 13:13 (Ref:3912424)   #7010
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That does bring up a good point, could that be modified or run as is within the rules as we know them but a LOT to be cleared up first. Could be an easier path for a privateer to get in the race.
That'd be interesting. I remember being astounded that the Nissan GT500 car wasn't far off the R18 laptime around Fuji. Where would that put them in comparison to LMP2 pace?

Palmer saying "it doesn't take a genius" to work out who might privately run Valkyries made me smile.
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Old 17 Jun 2019, 22:14 (Ref:3912551)   #7011
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I wouldn't like to see the current GT500's in lmp. They're probably not going to fit the ruleset anyway. 2000mm wide vs 1900(?)mm for DTM/GT500. Maybe they align in the next gen but I doubt that as well. It'd be interesting to see that like back in the 90s with the McLaren F1 racing the Supra, GTR, NSX etc.
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Old 17 Jun 2019, 22:28 (Ref:3912558)   #7012
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Super GT and DTM are 1950mm max wide. New hypercars are going to be at least 2000mm wide, maybe 2050 to match GTE (though I sort of doubt they'd go that far).

Also, I'm not sure if Hypercar is the best place to run a front engine car, even with BOP in place.
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Old 18 Jun 2019, 01:15 (Ref:3912589)   #7013
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I have avoided visiting Le Mans for the last 2 years, waiting for more competition to evolve at the head of the field - does anyone know when the new hypercars will be racing? Will LMP1 be a thing of the past come LM 2020, or will we get a repeat of 2019? Thanks!
Hypercar rules will be in effect starting season 2020-21, which means Le Mans 2021 is the first Le Mans for hypercars due to the winter schedule format and Le Mans being the last race of the season.

So 2020 will be more or less a repeat.
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Old 18 Jun 2019, 07:44 (Ref:3912618)   #7014
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The philosophy in racing seems to have changed from building a better mousetrap to the specs to just building the best mousetrap you can and we'll shift the rules to help you catch up.

I think car makers have various ways to develop and sell cars now without having to go through traditional motorsport. And while I don't agree with how BOP is taking over, fine, we're going to try it at the top level and see.
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Old 19 Jun 2019, 09:36 (Ref:3912832)   #7015
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I don't get this optional hybrid system? What is the benefit in investing in hybrid system when performance will be equalised with non-hybrid? And from the other POV, if hybrid has certain benefits why would anyone bother with non-hybrid?

The most funny thing is the fact that latest production hypercars all come with the hybrid system, but for racing only one has the guts to do it. What is the catch?
Marketing taking priority over engineering

= The core of bop racing
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Old 19 Jun 2019, 15:46 (Ref:3912909)   #7016
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I know that the BOP is not the best, but if we look at the positive side, look how great is the fight for the GTE Pro Victory, with cars of 4 or 5 different brands fighting for the race, that's going to be very good in the fight for the overall race and also we will have cars that look better than now, and the return of the V12 is just win to win for me.
They should only fix the intervention of the safety car so as not to destroy the race with fortuitous events. If the lap time of the Hypercar in Le Mans is going to be 3:30, they should use 7 safety cars instead of 3, 1 every 30 seconds and it would be fairer for everyone.
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Old 19 Jun 2019, 16:27 (Ref:3912924)   #7017
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I think I must be the only person pleased with these regs. The cars are going to be pretty and there’ll be a wonderful variety of sounds - a true swan song to the ICE before it inevitably disappears.

The BoP is not ideal, but in a way it’s just a formalisation of a process that regulators have been attempting since the 1920s (more or less). There’s been politically-motivated attempts attempts to slow some cars down and speed others up in the entire history of sports car racing, with some attempts more blatant than others. At least this is more transparent.
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Old 19 Jun 2019, 19:21 (Ref:3912962)   #7018
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I think I must be the only person pleased with these regs. The cars are going to be pretty and there’ll be a wonderful variety of sounds - a true swan song to the ICE before it inevitably disappears.

The BoP is not ideal, but in a way it’s just a formalisation of a process that regulators have been attempting since the 1920s (more or less). There’s been politically-motivated attempts attempts to slow some cars down and speed others up in the entire history of sports car racing, with some attempts more blatant than others. At least this is more transparent.
I like the hypercar concept myself. You are not alone.
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Old 19 Jun 2019, 22:00 (Ref:3912985)   #7019
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If it renews interest in LMP1 and brings variety back to the sport, I'm all for it. Not sure on BOP and how the ACO plan to handle it.

At least given what we do know, there's no more fuel flow meters/fuel consumption limits in hypercar, so no more lift and coast at least.
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Old 20 Jun 2019, 03:34 (Ref:3913005)   #7020
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BoP is the main issue for me too. In this sense the original regs published in December were better, since BoP was not specifically mentioned or least that they did not intend to use GTE-style automatic system.

6500cc, 12 cyl and >1 manufacturers are the parameters I like without reservations.
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Old 20 Jun 2019, 03:56 (Ref:3913007)   #7021
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I like hypercar in that we might be getting cars like the Valkyrie in looks. But at the same time I'm not sure on it because we might get some cars that look like a GTE with a different bodykit. At least with lmp1 we have a class where we see cars that look like... lmp's. And then bop is a great way to minimize the results of a teams investment and innovation in the class. I don't want innovation or clever thinking to be frowned on and standardized in the name of "fair competition". At the same time for that one, you don't want a VAG situation where two teams are spending F1-level budgets against eachother drowning out the other competitors. It's a tough thing to balance I guess.

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Old 20 Jun 2019, 05:20 (Ref:3913018)   #7022
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If it renews interest in LMP1 and brings variety back to the sport, I'm all for it.
It won't though. LMP1 at Le Mans is still one of those situations even right now where you get new stuff to look at every year, while we get to look forward to seeing the Valkyrie and GR Supersport show up exactly the same for like 5 years as every race bleeds together. I can barely remember what year DPi came in off hand because at this point it simultaneously feels like it was yesterday and forever ago, because there's no difference between those two points.
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Old 20 Jun 2019, 05:41 (Ref:3913021)   #7023
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I agree with you but there's an allowance for the cars to change. Not sure if it's one or the other but interviews so far have listed two; a change in the brands look/identity and a 'joker' type upgrade to the car.
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Old 20 Jun 2019, 13:52 (Ref:3913100)   #7024
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The one and only reason to build cars in bop class is marketing. There is no other element, because what's underneath the hood is irrelevant and nobody cares about the impact of technology. Watching the giant GTE-PRO (= upcoming Hypercar) wrestling train showride at Le Mans last weekend looked visually "impressive' I guess, but it's all hollow nonsense once you realize there's nothing to it, they're effectively all transformed into NASCAR spec cars (which for some reason are despised by purists even though it's the same ideology). It's like Michael Bay film, there's all sort of exploding crap in it to make it look like a real movie, but in the end there's no plot or sense of wonder or art. That's why the occasional SMP-ART vs Rebellion had so much more impact... it felt like it mattered what these teams had achieved, but also it wasn't constant "swinging shiny object to the cat" -effect. Hell I even remember one Indianapolis corner overtook from the RTLM race, but not a single one from the GTE train. It's just one big blur.

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Old 20 Jun 2019, 14:04 (Ref:3913103)   #7025
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The one and only reason to build cars in bop class is marketing. There is no other element, because what's underneath the hood is irrelevant and nobody cares about the impact of technology. Watching the giant GTE-PRO (= upcoming Hypercar) wrestling train showride at Le Mans last weekend looked visually "impressive' I guess, but it's all hollow nonsense once you realize there's nothing to it, they're effectively all transformed into NASCAR spec cars (which for some reason are despised by purists even though it's the same ideology). It's like Michael Bay film, there's all sort of exploding crap in it to make it look like a real movie, but in the end there's no plot or sense of wonder or art. That's why the occasional SMP-ART vs Rebellion had so much more impact... it felt like it mattered what these teams had achieved, but also it wasn't constant "swinging shiny object to the cat" -effect. Hell I even remember one Indianapolis corner overtook from the RTLM race, but not a single one from the GTE train. It's just one big blur.
We get it, you don't understand the requirements of racing and that is has ALWAYS been marketing. But for the love of god find anything else to follow, I'm considering forgoing the discussions on Ten-tenths entirely and PURELY to avoid this bs constantly. You don't add to the conversation and constantly hijack every thread to beat the drum of stupidity. Please tell me your life is so perfect in every other way that this is the only thing that's wrong in it.

But marketing has driven every decision from manufacturers to enter, to race and to improve their car. Return on investment requires a smaller investment of time, money and energy as they don't have access to the high profit sponsors of the past, cigarettes, alcohol, etc, AND more importantly, kids with disposable income could not possibly care any less about cars in huge numbers. Your options are not the (never actually happened long term) golden age of no rules or BOP, it's no racing or controlled investment racing. That's the only options and stop acting like a petulant little child. We get it, you are but GROW THE F UP.
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