Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Single Seater Racing > Formula One

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 6 May 2013, 12:05 (Ref:3243518)   #276
formerf1champ
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Australia
Vettel's gearbox preparing bench
Posts: 1,030
formerf1champ should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnut View Post
No, formerF1champ:
(1)Spritles’ post was right on the money, and still is.
(2)Grand Prix are currently condensed Sports-Prototype race as it features all the equipment management issues (tyres) that you would expect to see in a WEC event.
The whole point of a 300 km, 2 hour (actually) event is that very few individuals are capable of driving an F1 car at 10/10ths for that length of time.
When I watch MotoGP, I know I am watching the best riders in the world, the bikes are difficult to ride, they can race for the whole race distance, and the riders themselves make a huge difference to the performance of the bike, Stoner, Pedroso, Lorenzo and now Marquez.
Marquez hunting Lorenzo down over a full race and passing him on the last corner of the Spanish GP over the week end was racing at the highest level. You can see the bikes squirming and breaking traction under braking, acceleration and cornering loads. Magnificent to watch.
Equally Pol Espagoro catching and passing Nakagami for third place in the Moto2 GP was preceded by a magnificent dice. Not one tyre sop between them!
Unless the tyres used in WEC are deliberately designed to degrade, a WEC race isn't like a GP.

A Motogp race is 120km. A 300km Motogp race wouldn't be as thrilling to watch. Would a 120km F1 gp satisfy you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wnut View Post
DRS has fixed the parade problem, now give them tyres that they can race on and that reward excellence! The skill should be on balancing a grip limited (hard) tyre that is more than capable of lasting the race for 300km, not managing and changing degrading tyres at 7/10ths for 2 hours, yawn.
Hey, I agree with the tyres, although I would just rip the wings off an F1 car myself. If you want to blame anyone, blame the F1 industry who've tried to make current GP like the fuel stop races, to satisfy many "fans" who are too used to fuel stop F1 races.

You would also have to recognise that, even if you got what you wanted, you still would get what you want. If as tyre could last 300km with little trouble, the designers would design cars that could use them up a bit more, to the point where a pitstop may be necessary. Also, the first half, two thirds of the race would still be "quiet". Unless it's a deliberate tactic, the drivers would realise they don't need to go helter skelter from the start. As a result, they would "manage" their race.
formerf1champ is offline  
Quote
Old 6 May 2013, 13:13 (Ref:3243550)   #277
wnut
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,088
wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!
the point I was trying to drive at is that in WEC the management of equipment fragility is a necessity and counts as much as outright speed.
In F1 currently the tyre fragility forces F1 teams to nurse/manage and change the tyres constantly.

I think I would rather see two 120 km races in an afternoon than the current tyre management format. If you can race a bike that hard for 120 km it should certainly be possible to race a car that hard for 300 km 2 hrs.

Agreed Formerf1champ, the best solution would be to ditch the wings. Would love to see an open 600 hp formula ford type formula.
The cars would "dance" and squirm and it would be a place where only the very best drivers could compete. Like MotoGP there would be no pretenders, only the very best would be successful.

They would probably have to go helter skelter from the start, as the driver who could maintain as close to 10/10ths as possible would win. Ragging the car the is usually slow in any case, but we should see the cars stepping out of line when the drivers push too hard.

Hopefully the WDC would then be the fastest sprint driver in the world.

The MotoGP guys make the distance without changing tyres, so it should be possible in a GP. Only let one man work on a car in the pits if necessary.

Oh and I agree the current F1 teams are guilty of forming formula mediocrity. This aspect is not Bernie's fault.

Last edited by wnut; 6 May 2013 at 13:19.
wnut is offline  
Quote
Old 6 May 2013, 22:48 (Ref:3243726)   #278
Armco Bender
Llama Assassin and Sheep Botherer
Veteran
 
Armco Bender's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
New Zealand
International Sheep Ambassador
Posts: 4,212
Armco Bender is going for a new world record!Armco Bender is going for a new world record!Armco Bender is going for a new world record!Armco Bender is going for a new world record!Armco Bender is going for a new world record!Armco Bender is going for a new world record!Armco Bender is going for a new world record!
It would make it more interesting if the drivers had to get out and change their own tyres.
Armco Bender is offline  
Quote
Old 7 May 2013, 12:13 (Ref:3243929)   #279
Spritle
Veteran
 
Spritle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location:
46 Egernon Road
Posts: 1,013
Spritle has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armco Bender View Post
It would make it more interesting if the drivers had to get out and change their own tyres.
I can think of some I rather have change tyres...perhaps some of the Pirelli tifosi...

Excuse me while I get over myself...
Spritle is offline  
Quote
Old 7 May 2013, 13:44 (Ref:3243963)   #280
Bononi
Race Official
20KPINAL
 
Bononi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location:
Deep in the Chaos Nation's countryside
Posts: 21,606
Bononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
That's a good idea !
Bononi is offline  
__________________
Show me a man who won't give it to his woman
An' I'll show you somebody who will
Quote
Old 7 May 2013, 15:29 (Ref:3244002)   #281
jsTrecu
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 744
jsTrecu should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridjsTrecu should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spritle View Post
I can think of some I rather have change tyres...perhaps some of the Pirelli tifosi...

Excuse me while I get over myself...
jsTrecu is offline  
Quote
Old 7 May 2013, 18:48 (Ref:3244070)   #282
Marbot
Retired
20KPINAL
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
United Kingdom
Posts: 22,897
Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armco Bender View Post
I bet Ron Howard never makes a film about any of Vettels championships...
Why not? Why wouldn't anyone want to make that film in 30 or 40 years time. A film about Ayrton Senna was made, but with no mention that he often used the same car set up that Prost was using. There are always things about drivers that you wouldn't want to hear, since they would damage the image of that driver, but these things often get lost in time, anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by formerf1champ View Post
Yeah, but in the 70s, satisfying armchair 'fans" wasn't a priority.
And this is the crux of the matter. Should F1 stay as it is, or should it not fear becoming a highlights program several hours after the event actually happened?


Quote:
Originally Posted by formerf1champ View Post
DRS has fixed the parade problem, now give them tyres that they can race on and that reward excellence! The skill should be on balancing a grip limited (hard) tyre that is more than capable of lasting the race for 300km, not managing and changing degrading tyres at 7/10ths for 2 hours, yawn.
If you have just a really hard tyre, then you are still not racing at 10/10ths, since a softer tyre would obviously be faster. You are still limited by the performance of a harder tyre. You may also find that it's much more difficult to make a car quicker on hard tyres than on soft tyres, so any team that lucks into performing well on a very hard tyre would be that much harder to catch. And since it's practically impossible to see if the hard tyre can last the distance on your car due to limitations in practice sessions etc, then the races will still be a lottery with regard to the outcome. It's not like any of the teams are able to do 100,000 kms of winter testing any more in order to see exactly how long a tyre will actually last for.

When we had race distance tyres back in 05, we had lots of problems with them and the tyre war accentuated that. Bridgestone and Michelin went all out to not to just make a better tyre but also to provide funding for other aspects of the car that weren't tyre related. The tyres tended to suit just a few cars (those with enough money for tyre testing, which was often provided by the tyre manufacturer) and the rest made the best of what was given to them.

If Pirelli make a race distance tyre, then they would be handing yet another championship to Red Bull. It wouldn't particularly bother me that Vettel won all of the races in a season, but some fans don't take too kindly to that sort of thing, often complaining of processional racing and a lack of on track battles due to the hard tyres having strung out the field. The fact that Red Bull have a car with an excess of downforce should be seen as a positive and not a negative. How often have we said that downforce needs limiting in some way?
Marbot is offline  
Quote
Old 8 May 2013, 14:56 (Ref:3244360)   #283
Pingguest
Veteran
 
Pingguest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Netherlands
Heemstede, The Netherlands
Posts: 3,191
Pingguest should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
As predicted years before its introduction: the control tyre will be used for manipulation and as an argument for further standardization of the series.
Pingguest is offline  
__________________
'Aerodynamics are for people who can't build engines.' - Enzo Ferrari
Quote
Old 8 May 2013, 22:51 (Ref:3244548)   #284
wnut
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,088
wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pingguest View Post
As predicted years before its introduction: the control tyre will be used for manipulation and as an argument for further standardization of the series.
You are right.
We have a control item, the management of which, is the most central feature of a teams results.
That isn't to my way of thinking what a WDC or WCC should consist of!

Maybe we should change the name to WTMC. (World Tyre Management Championship)

Still it is more entertaining to watch than the parades of the past, no reason it can't be made better though!
wnut is offline  
Quote
Old 9 May 2013, 12:16 (Ref:3244802)   #285
formerf1champ
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Australia
Vettel's gearbox preparing bench
Posts: 1,030
formerf1champ should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnut View Post
I think I would rather see two 120 km races in an afternoon than the current tyre management format. If you can race a bike that hard for 120 km it should certainly be possible to race a car that hard for 300 km 2 hrs.
If the single 300km race wasn't so ingrained in F1, I can see the merit in this format. The weakness with this type of race, I think, is that it makes it easy for the drivers. You just go hard from the start. Personally, I would rather see races drivers and teams are uncertain with their tactics, or at least not 100% certain. Nowadays, before the weekend has started, Red Bull know if they do A, B and C, they'd win. The weakness with this is that the race might appear processional or quiet, paricularly if you are unsure who is doing what.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marbot View Post
And this is the crux of the matter. Should F1 stay as it is, or should it not fear becoming a highlights program several hours after the event actually happened?
Popularity may wax and wane. But the highest level of motorsport will always be popular enough not to be pushed to the background..
formerf1champ is offline  
Quote
Old 9 May 2013, 12:27 (Ref:3244809)   #286
Marbot
Retired
20KPINAL
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
United Kingdom
Posts: 22,897
Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnut View Post
You are right.
We have a control item, the management of which, is the most central feature of a teams results.
That isn't to my way of thinking what a WDC or WCC should consist of!

Maybe we should change the name to WTMC. (World Tyre Management Championship)

Still it is more entertaining to watch than the parades of the past, no reason it can't be made better though!
Here's a clip of the 86 Spanish GP at Jerez. Listen to what Murray says at the beginning of the clip (00.24). It's never been any different. Both cars were fitted with Goodyear tyres that may or may not have been designed (probably not) to complete a full race distance on that circuit under those particular conditions.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22365429
Marbot is offline  
Quote
Old 10 May 2013, 13:22 (Ref:3245347)   #287
jsTrecu
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 744
jsTrecu should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridjsTrecu should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Do you think the same debris that caused Massa's punctures last race did this ?
Rumors say some debris were spotted in the Barcelona Airport, they must be travelling on their own from track to track boycott Pirelli's amazing tyres.





This was funny, trying to hide the evidence

jsTrecu is offline  
Quote
Old 10 May 2013, 20:51 (Ref:3245427)   #288
JeremySmith
Veteran
 
JeremySmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
United Kingdom
Austin Texas
Posts: 11,402
JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!
It's nice to see that the tyres are working well again this weekend..
JeremySmith is offline  
Quote
Old 10 May 2013, 20:56 (Ref:3245428)   #289
FordCosworthPanoz
Veteran
 
FordCosworthPanoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Bermuda
Flatts Village
Posts: 4,016
FordCosworthPanoz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridFordCosworthPanoz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridFordCosworthPanoz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
"But it's never Pirelli's fault"

"The racing is so much better"

"F1 is the best it's ever been"

"Michelin produced dangerous tyres once, something Pirelli has never done!!!"

"Paul Hembery is right about everything"

"Too much debris on the track"

"Felipe Massa's two nearly identical punctures were caused by debris"

"Marussia got the setup wrong in Malaysia practice"

"Motorsport is boring I'd much rather watch a conservation derby"


Now to be followed with, "Spanish organizers need to do a better job of cleaning debris off the track"
FordCosworthPanoz is offline  
Quote
Old 10 May 2013, 21:23 (Ref:3245440)   #290
jsTrecu
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 744
jsTrecu should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridjsTrecu should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Pirelli open to changes to its tyres after di Resta's failure
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107323

Hembery admitting there is a problem and not mentioning debris as a cause, who would have guessed...
jsTrecu is offline  
Quote
Old 10 May 2013, 21:39 (Ref:3245445)   #291
FordCosworthPanoz
Veteran
 
FordCosworthPanoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Bermuda
Flatts Village
Posts: 4,016
FordCosworthPanoz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridFordCosworthPanoz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridFordCosworthPanoz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsTrecu View Post
Pirelli open to changes to its tyres after di Resta's failure
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107323

Hembery admitting there is a problem and not mentioning debris as a cause, who would have guessed...

...nobody.
FordCosworthPanoz is offline  
Quote
Old 10 May 2013, 22:26 (Ref:3245466)   #292
Knowlesy
20KPINAL
 
Knowlesy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 29,853
Knowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
I will be laughed out of the thread but here goes: Pirelli are an absolute disgrace to motorsport.
Knowlesy is offline  
Quote
Old 10 May 2013, 23:07 (Ref:3245482)   #293
andy666
Racer
 
andy666's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
United Kingdom
Lincolnshire
Posts: 479
andy666 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridandy666 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knowlesy View Post
I will be laughed out of the thread but here goes: Pirelli are an absolute disgrace to motorsport.
Well I will be laughed out as well because I agree , 2 race weekends in a row now tyres have fallen apart . I don't remember Bridgestone having these problems . Anyone recall any other time this has happened ?
andy666 is offline  
__________________
I know the where , I still don’t know the when .
Quote
Old 11 May 2013, 03:06 (Ref:3245543)   #294
Scooter185
Racer
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
United States
Connecticut
Posts: 364
Scooter185 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
While I think Pirelli has been doing what they're asked, if the tires are just literally falling apart that's not good and something definitely needs to be done.

I still love the set of p-zeros on my camaro though, 30,000+ miles. I just wish I had gotten scorpions for the winter instead of Bridgestone blizzaks.
Scooter185 is offline  
Quote
Old 11 May 2013, 08:55 (Ref:3245605)   #295
andy666
Racer
 
andy666's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
United Kingdom
Lincolnshire
Posts: 479
andy666 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridandy666 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooter185 View Post
While I think Pirelli has been doing what they're asked, if the tires are just literally falling apart that's not good and something definitely needs to be done.

I still love the set of p-zeros on my camaro though, 30,000+ miles. I just wish I had gotten scorpions for the winter instead of Bridgestone blizzaks.
The "We are doing what we were asked" line is becoming a bit tiresome now
andy666 is offline  
__________________
I know the where , I still don’t know the when .
Quote
Old 11 May 2013, 12:36 (Ref:3245646)   #296
jsTrecu
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 744
jsTrecu should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridjsTrecu should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Spanish GP: Pirelli reckons debris caused Paul di Resta's failure
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107336

Here we go again...
jsTrecu is offline  
Quote
Old 11 May 2013, 13:41 (Ref:3245679)   #297
Knowlesy
20KPINAL
 
Knowlesy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 29,853
Knowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Where has all this debris come from? And why are Pirelli three more susceptible to it?

Pack of charlatans.
Knowlesy is offline  
Quote
Old 11 May 2013, 15:09 (Ref:3245718)   #298
Bononi
Race Official
20KPINAL
 
Bononi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location:
Deep in the Chaos Nation's countryside
Posts: 21,606
Bononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBononi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
You know, the world is made of debris...

and they don't know how to deal with that...


Oh wait, the teams asked for it !
Bononi is offline  
__________________
Show me a man who won't give it to his woman
An' I'll show you somebody who will
Quote
Old 11 May 2013, 15:16 (Ref:3245723)   #299
Knowlesy
20KPINAL
 
Knowlesy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 29,853
Knowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Tyres. Not three.

I keep falling foul of my phone correcting that so shall type the American 'tires' from now on.
Knowlesy is offline  
Quote
Old 11 May 2013, 16:05 (Ref:3245747)   #300
JeremySmith
Veteran
 
JeremySmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
United Kingdom
Austin Texas
Posts: 11,402
JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!
One can tire of this tyre business, its getting beyond a joke now..
JeremySmith is offline  
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[Tech Issue] New tyre markings and softer compounds for Pirelli tyres Marbot Formula One 7 26 Jan 2012 14:44
[Rules] Pirelli (ITA) : ban tyre changes under red flag. duke_toaster Formula One 11 31 May 2011 03:15
The Pirelli Story Dutton Motorsport History 1 13 Aug 2009 16:06
Pirelli win WRC tyre contract. BertMk2 Rallying & Rallycross 14 5 Apr 2007 09:48
Pirelli tyre problems? Asa Sportscar & GT Racing 3 18 Jul 2005 12:35


All times are GMT. The time now is 21:27.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.