[Team] Williams: Do they have a spare tub?

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Williams has released some video of Dan's simulator work. It looks like he continues to struggle to get past his old issues however.

https://youtu.be/LuOMJ87OkIE

Richard

[Coloni_Subaru]

Much as I don't rate him.
Letting massa retire again or not getting an experienced driver (with two heathly arms) to replace him was a mistake,

Signing Dan is also a mistake, lot of bad publicity there that Williams don't need.

[S griffin]

I agree that since Massa's gone things have nosedived for Williams. But as much as they need an experienced driver, who would want to go to a team struggling at the back? And secondly where would they get the money for that experienced driver? Although Hulk would be cheap I'll admit

As Dan Ticktum, he needs to be on best behaviour if anything good is to come of this,

[Richard C]

I am all for the concept of second chances, redemption, etc. But Dan is on his second, third or more chance at getting things right. I frankly only started to pay attention to him due to the negative press. But he does it to himself. Even this recent news, IMHO, he has managed to handle it poorly.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/t...ement/4601784/

Interesting quote that is showing up in multiple articles (and is the headline in the one above)

If I can’t get to F1, I’ll probably – unless I get a very good deal in something else – I’ll probably forget motorsport if I’m honest.

It has a level of entitlement that doesn't work for him given his history. His accusations of cheating by Mick Schumacher (because Dan wasn't winning) comes immediately to mind. Dan just feel he deserves to be in F1. Once in, no doubt he would deserve to be winning as well. Even if he moderates his message later in his interviews, it basically is clear that the core version of Dan continues to fight through to the surface and he tries to tamp it back down again.

I hope he gets his stuff together as he seems to have talent. Move from hot/cold performance to a more consistent positive one. Grow up emotionally. Stuff like that. Unfortunately, I see no reason that will happen during the period that F1 would consider him.

I assume Williams took him in along with some cash? Otherwise, why would they want him? Especially given his inconsistent performance. Are they looking for inconsistent feedback? Maybe his race engineers have good things to say about him.

Richard

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by E.B

I spent a few minutes looking for a good video and that one was just comedy gold and a perfect fit. I think the kid is playing Mario Kart. And his comments are just beyond great. Then his game is taken away from him. It's Dan's career in a nutshell!

Richard

[bella]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I hope he gets his stuff together as he seems to have talent. Move from hot/cold performance to a more consistent positive one. Grow up emotionally. Stuff like that. Unfortunately, I see no reason that will happen during the period that F1 would consider him.

he comes across very different in person. his confidence isn't arrogance.

and what's wrong with that quote? lewis hamilton says the same, that motorsport isn't the be all and end all and people give him grief for it too. there's life outside the sport, particularly if you're a well rounded human being.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bella

and what's wrong with that quote? lewis hamilton says the same, that motorsport isn't the be all and end all and people give him grief for it too. there's life outside the sport, particularly if you're a well rounded human being.

Nothing wrong with having a goal to reach the top. I am puzzled by such a singular goal in that if you can't reach the top, then you just walk away from it all. Does he have a love for the sport or is he in love with the idea of being on top of something?

Lewis however, mixed both. He clearly loves the sport, came in with a strong desire to stand on the top AND killed it in F1. So he has nothing to prove to anyone. If he somehow didn't manage to make it into the pinnacle of F1 I sort of doubt he would have taken his ball, gone home and become a sales clerk at the local grocery (or whatever Dan plans to do as his backup plan after he ditches motorsports). My perception is that Lewis' recent comments is healthy in that. Motorsports isn't everything. When Lewis stops, I expect he may stop from a "professional" perspective, but will remain engaged in the adrenaline rush in some form because he loves the larger sport.

I am rough on Dan because the words that come out of his mouth are occasionally very dumb. It wouldn't have taken much additional thought to have crafted a better answer. Speak to his personal passion for winning and desire to compete with the best. His dreams for F1, etc. But don't say "if I am not in F1, I am going to quit". If you read the articles that have more of the interview, he tries to soften it. But like I say above, it's like he speaks before he thinks. Maybe the same applies when the red mist appears as well.

Originally Posted by bella

he comes across very different in person. his confidence isn't arrogance.

I can't speak to that. If I was to speculate, I might wonder if his personality matches how he is on track. Hot/Cold (or Good/Bad). Most of the time he might be very much not like the persona that gets all of the bad press. Dr Jekyll most of the time and Mr Hyde on occasion (and in front of everyone).

And it may all be unfair to him. In that the media (and people like me) have him under a microscope looking for any type of flaw to point out. But in the end, he created the situation he is in. Fair or not.

Richard

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I agree that since Massa's gone things have nosedived for Williams. But as much as they need an experienced driver, who would want to go to a team struggling at the back? And secondly where would they get the money for that experienced driver? Although Hulk would be cheap I'll admit

As Dan Ticktum, he needs to be on best behaviour if anything good is to come of this,

Hulkenberg was not cheap .....that was his problem

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Coloni_Subaru

Much as I don't rate him.
Letting massa retire again or not getting an experienced driver (with two heathly arms) to replace him was a mistake,

Signing Dan is also a mistake, lot of bad publicity there that Williams don't need.

Money talks! Certainly more than talent fur Team Willy these days.

[bella]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I am rough on Dan because the words that come out of his mouth are occasionally very dumb. It wouldn't have taken much additional thought to have crafted a better answer. Speak to his personal passion for winning and desire to compete with the best. His dreams for F1, etc. But don't say "if I am not in F1, I am going to quit". If you read the articles that have more of the interview, he tries to soften it. But like I say above, it's like he speaks before he thinks. Maybe the same applies when the red mist appears as well.

nothing personal, but it absolutely cracks me up when people can do a full character assassination of someone who is actually pretty rarely in the press.

most people can't speak in soundbites. again, look at lewis. the press and the internet constantly take a single sentence of his way out of context and use it as a stick to beat him with because they've decided they don't like him.

what's wrong with having a singular goal? if it was someone like charles leclerc who had said that when he was in gp2/f2 everyone would clap and applaud his mentality. because it's someone who The Internet has decided to cancel it's a stupid statement.

[cds_uk]

Well, personally i was chuffed when i heard Dan had been signed up, for all his ill advised moments, and i admit there has been a fair few, he has undoubtedly got a huge amount of talent. He would probably admit himself that he is in the last chance saloon, i hope it works out, with a bit of luck this could be a very good fit. Either that or in 15 - 20 years we will be looking back on him as a Tommy Byrne type character.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bella

nothing personal, but it absolutely cracks me up when people can do a full character assassination of someone who is actually pretty rarely in the press.

Apologies if I have somehow insulted you or someone you are a fan of. I truly mean that.

But you are completely missing much of what I am saying, or I am doing a bad job of saying what I mean to say. It sounds like you know or have interacted with him personally and have positive things to say. And I can take you fully at your word and without hesitation (not that you need my approval). Re-read my Jekyll and Hyde comment. It's not the balance of his full character here, but that part of it does it's best to do self damage. Santino Ferrucci also comes to mind as having the same issue, but I think he is getting his stuff together. Maybe Dan will do the same at Williams. I suspect simulator work is not going to expose is faults. So it may be good for both parties.

Originally Posted by bella

most people can't speak in soundbites. again, look at lewis. the press and the internet constantly take a single sentence of his way out of context and use it as a stick to beat him with because they've decided they don't like him.

Fair point, but you also are missing the point that there is more to Lewis than what you mention. For example, I for one think some of his fashion sense stinks, but am amazed at what he can do in a car and his career in total. My point is there is quite a lot out there on Lewis. Mostly a ton of success and a handful of things that people pick at.

As I mention, it may not be fair, but Dan has created drama for himself multiple times so that puts the spotlight on him. Romain Grosjean fits that mold as well (and I rather like him). Grosjean "complaining" has become a thing. How "real" it is, is debatable, but at this point it hangs over him (real or not). Once you have a cloud like that hanging over you, you gotta work extra hard to get out from under it.

Plus, while Dan has has success, he can be hot and cold. If he performed more consistently and lived to his potential, much of the negative perception would have something to balance against. Look at Max Verstappen for example. Lots of negative comments toward him at first. He was too young, too aggressive, too whatever. But he was in the end, getting it done. Couple that with what appears to be increasing maturity on various levels and we just don't see much (or as much) negative criticism of Max these days.

Originally Posted by bella

what's wrong with having a singular goal? if it was someone like charles leclerc who had said that when he was in gp2/f2 everyone would clap and applaud his mentality. because it's someone who The Internet has decided to cancel it's a stupid statement.

Again, you are missing my point. It's not the singular goal, but how he communicated it. As you say above, some have a rough time with soundbites. But saying you are singularly focused on F1. Great! You have my full support. Saying that if you don't make it into F1, that you will quit motorsports? Sour grapes, from someone who has a history of sour grapes.

In the end, I both hope it works out for him and also feel that his record speak for itself. I don't have to make a case for why it's nuts to make Dan part of any F1 teams. But Williams is in a weird place right now and not just any F1 team. So they are doing stuff that is a bit out of the box just to survive and/or move forward. If they were in a better position, I am sure Dan would not be their first choice.

With that being said. I feel I have spent more time talking about this than I planned. The Devil in me enjoyed the YouTube video, but I didn't set out today to wind up anyone who is a fan of Dan. Sorry again if I did that. I rarely crap directly on someone like I did above. I don't disagree with my comments, but it's not my usually thing.

Richard

[Coloni_Subaru]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I agree that since Massa's gone things have nosedived for Williams. But as much as they need an experienced driver, who would want to go to a team struggling at the back? And secondly where would they get the money for that experienced driver? Although Hulk would be cheap I'll admit

As Dan Ticktum, he needs to be on best behaviour if anything good is to come of this,

They could have offered to run Pascal Wehrlein or Ocon for Toto in exchange for x amount off an engine.

Who knows hopefully Williams turn it round.

Knows its his daughter and Franks getting older, but he doesn't seem on the outside to be as ruthless as he was,

Admittedly with Drivers, your Nigels,Damons etc and not his own Flesh and blood.

Just hope Claire doesn't undo all her Dads hard work.

[bella]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Apologies if I have somehow insulted you or someone you are a fan of. I truly mean that.

But you are completely missing much of what I am saying, or I am doing a bad job of saying what I mean to say.

no, you're articulating yourself fine, i'm just bored of debating with people on the internet who are less good at explaining themselves and should know better you've taken your time to detail your whys and whens and that's absolutely what there should be more of on the internet. we'll agree to differ

otoh, personally i would resign if i had to work with ferrucci. there's not many paddocks in europe where he'd be welcome and that says it all.

williams are just doing what every team has done before them and is taking a driver with good pace and good money. absolutely no shame in that. it is, after all, how motorsport works.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by bella

williams are just doing what every team has done before them and is taking a driver with good pace and good money. absolutely no shame in that. it is, after all, how motorsport works.

It's a good indicator of where Williams are currently - Ticktum is very much a "last chance saloon" driver that happens to have a pot of cash, would they have gone near him when they were at the height of their powers?

Red Bull were very quick to drop him from their program when he'd been in the running for the Torro Rosso seat (if he'd had the points needed for the Superlicence he'd surely have been in that seat?) so clearly they saw something that was a big red flag to them. Given that it left Red Bull with a hole in their driver scheme it was obviosuly a big problem. His temperament is an issue - but is it any worse than others that have made it to F1? (Maldonado for a start).

It's worth checking the Williams social media feeds to see the general reaction to the signing

[chillibowl]

this year we had the youngest grid of all time in F1 (i think). Max and Leclerc are 21 and looking for world titles now, Norris is 19, Stroll and Russell are 20, Gasly and Albon 22.

Gio at 24 and not the most convincing season so maybe doesnt look like a future title contender anymore...more so when compared to Sainz who is also 24.

i cant comment on his past behaviour/comments but he has got a point...if F1 is his end goal (his dream job) and he doesnt get it soon then his chances of ever getting it massively decreases with each extra year that goes by.

of course there are other good paying jobs in motorsports but in the end they would just be jobs to him and not his dream.

whether they know it or not, this is pretty much the dilemma faced by every 20/21 kid out there...as someone whose dream to play in the NBA came to an end at 14 i can sympathize.

[bella]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

this year we had the youngest grid of all time in F1 (i think). Max and Leclerc are 21 and looking for world titles now, Norris is 19, Stroll and Russell are 20, Gasly and Albon 22.

interestingly, the first four's path to the top was eased by a biblical amount of cash, whereas giovinazzi had to get by on good faith and someone elses dollar to make it to the top.

(i think norris is 20 now, vaguely remember him whinging about not being a teenager any more on social media)

Originally Posted by chillibowl

i cant comment on his past behaviour/comments but he has got a point...if F1 is his end goal (his dream job) and he doesnt get it soon then his chances of ever getting it massively decreases with each extra year that goes by.

this is it - many drivers don't want to share a ride with two other blokes in sportscars, and have no desire to go around befriending rich benefactors to be their co-drivers when the money runs out. and touring cars speak for themselves.

i mean, sprint and endurance are such different disciplines it's like saying to a kid "i know you want to play in the premier league but do you fancy a bit of rugby instead?"

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

i cant comment on his past behaviour/comments but he has got a point...if F1 is his end goal (his dream job) and he doesnt get it soon then his chances of ever getting it massively decreases with each extra year that goes by.

Originally Posted by bella

i mean, sprint and endurance are such different disciplines it's like saying to a kid "i know you want to play in the premier league but do you fancy a bit of rugby instead?"

I had bowed out of this discussion, but wanted to jump in to be a bit pedantic on one point. It's not that he said time is running out and his F1 career will have an expiration date, but rather if he doesn't get in he is quitting motorsports. Him getting in or not is probably unrelated to his age (or future old age)

And to bella's point, the options are not just F1 or multi-driver prototype/sportscar racing. Indycar is the clear example of another option. Now we can have an argument about going backwards or the extra danger of Indycar vs. F1, etc. But with that said, in a universe of infinite possibilities, I guess someone could be in love with F1 and only F1. The rest can all be damned!

To expand bella's analogy, it's like if you don't make it into premier league, you will never play the game again. Did you not enjoy it on the climb up? How could you climb to the top and NOT enjoy the journey? I personally don't think you could make it to the top if you didn't enjoy the journey. Because of that, I think the "I will quit" is totally disingenuous (maybe not intentionally) and was a poorly worded comment. But didn't play well based upon the mouth it came out of.

I will try to drop out of this conversation again before I get myself into trouble.

Richard

[bella]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I will try to drop out of this conversation again before I get myself into trouble.

don't worry, i'm barely able to think straight due to manflu at the moment and to challenge your fair points would require a level of brain far beyond what i'm capable of at the moment

some people aren't cool enough for indycar. thankfully they self-select

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by bella

no, you're articulating yourself fine, i'm just bored of debating with people on the internet who are less good at explaining themselves and should know better you've taken your time to detail your whys and whens and that's absolutely what there should be more of on the internet. we'll agree to differ

otoh, personally i would resign if i had to work with ferrucci. there's not many paddocks in europe where he'd be welcome and that says it all.

williams are just doing what every team has done before them and is taking a driver with good pace and good money. absolutely no shame in that. it is, after all, how motorsport works.

Now I have to ask. Why is this your view? He has been roundly praised in the indycar paddock, from other drivers saying he's a good, fair racer, to his teammate, who was much his opposite, getting along well. He also showed a lot of class after incidents, like with newgarden, when he basically apologized on air for his block in the last corner of the last lap at (I think) the st Louis oval? The announcers all are complimentary as well. Usually there would be some alluding to him rubbing someone the wrong way if there was anything there.

His past behavior is obviously unacceptable, but it seems he's cleaned that up. I also am a little less impressed because he is there because of daddy's money, but he does seem to be talented and fun to watch and by all accounts in indycar, likable as well. So, I'm wondering why you would have such a dim view of him while defending another talented young driver with a checkered past?

[S griffin]

I feel you should forgive what someone has done in the past if they have shown they have learned from it, as the above post says

[bella]

it's very hard for a person to change so significantly in such a short amount of time when they've been raised in a particular way, and to a particular narrative.

i can accept his disrespect of basic rules such as driving his race car to the assembly area whilst using his phone or whatever it was and believe he's changed (even if they were incredibly stupid), as long as he doesn't do it again. but the rest of it...

i realise to some that may appear to clash with my views regarding ticktum (dragging this back on topic) but i can assure you there's a substantial difference. again, particularly considering some of the things that some male race fans will not forgive of lewis hamilton.

ferrucci can stay cancelled.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bella

particularly considering some of the things that some male race fans will not forgive of lewis hamilton.

Sorry, I just have to ask what you are alluding to?

Richard

[bella]

fair question - pretty much anything. lifestyle choice, alternative career choices, country of residence choices, diet choices...

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by bella

fair question - pretty much anything. lifestyle choice, alternative career choices, country of residence choices, diet choices...

See, this is very vague and doesn't seem fair to ferrucci without specifics. We have specifics on some of these things with hamilton. We also have you saying that hamilton is harmless and living his best life. So pretty different from staying cancelled, as you would like with ferrucci.

I am probably and hopefully reading too much into it, but considering one of the odd things (somewhat controversial) I've heard about ferrucci and mostly came from his dad, it leads me to believe this is a political thing.