Chevron B19

[Delbert]

Hello Chaps
Sorry been distracted over recent months with a new project.
I see it has gone a little quiet.

Does anyone know where i can get hold of a copy of "Auto Trader Number 74" from 1977?
I have tried ebay and the usual searches but with no luck. Happy to buy or just a scanned copy would be great.

[driftwood]

what is autotrader in 1977?
do u mean the used street car magazine run by Sir John Majedski?

[Delbert]

Hi Driftwood, I was a bit surprised by the reference - I dont think it could be the auto trader unless they used to give race results etc. It may be a French or German magazine.

[driftwood]

Ok
what is the reference yr after so we can narrow down the country magazine
france has autohebdo
italy autosprint
germans had 1 good race mag in the 70`s 80`s ( cant recall name ) now its AutoBild but not a true autosport type mag

[Alan Brown]

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=119922

Reference to a B19 (HU36)??????? on the above (new) Chevron B56 thread.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Alan Brown

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=119922

Reference to a B19 (HU36)??????? on the above (new) Chevron B56 thread.

I didn't know that Derek had a factory in Huntington...

[driftwood]

just taken a while for the penny to drop !!

[Delbert]

the year is 1977. The reference comes from Hebdo so it is not them, I am afraid i have nothing else to go on. Could be a wild goose chase

Thanks for putting your grey cells to this one

[allenbrown]

Auto Technik? German magazine.

[driftwood]

yes auto technik was a good german race mag no longer around now
what are you tryong to solve from 1977?

[rjhco]

Here is a link to pictures of B19 71/06:

http://orange.photobox.co.uk/my/albu...m_id=267477533

Reference to HU36 was my mistake earlier.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by rjhco

Here is a link to pictures of B19 71/06:

http://orange.photobox.co.uk/my/albu...m_id=267477533

Reference to HU36 was my mistake earlier.

I am sure Allen is going to love this.

[driftwood]

he and I are already on the case past 10 days we dont sit around sleeping half the day!
ok he does i have cattle prod for him!

[Delbert]

Originally Posted by driftwood

yes auto technik was a good german race mag no longer around now
what are you tryong to solve from 1977?

That sounds like a possibility. I will try to find something the German version of Ebay!

It is probably a bit early to let the cat out of the bag but i have just bought Toj SC302. It is the car driven by Obermosser, Rousellot and of course Stommelen. It gave the works Alfa's a fright so I am hoping we can put it back to it's former glory. It is like something out of Scrapheap challenge and will take best part of a year to get it ready. (I am hoping to be ready for CER Paul Ricard in Oct but that may be too optimistic).

Thanks for the tip & happy 2010 to you all

[driftwood]

If its a 3 litre toj allegedly 1 man owns all the 3 litre cars built ( we;; he told me so! ) and called me seeking gearbox
if its a 2 litre car now that purports to be have been a 3 litre well you know what he will say to that!

[Delbert]

Originally Posted by driftwood

If its a 3 litre toj allegedly 1 man owns all the 3 litre cars built ( we;; he told me so! ) and called me seeking gearbox
if its a 2 litre car now that purports to be have been a 3 litre well you know what he will say to that!

Yes indeed it is the same man. Has taken me a couple of years to get him to sell to me (others have tried over the years). Persuaded hm that if he let me have the Le Castellet car then the others would go up in value! He has since sold one to a French guy and the other is still in his garage.

I think it is fair to say that he is an authority on the marque. He has given me some great provenace including the wagenpass- the existance of the 1977 Hebdo article makes it easier to verify.

I have promised Henk a exclusive (if he wants it for Ultimate Car Page) but need to get a release for some great period pics.

A lot of work so wont be out soon!

Can't find any German Mags called Auto Tecnik which is a shame

[driftwood]

I have been reading my 1978 AS and i have found the article with photo in March/April about the Skoda built for Brian Whiting with a Chevron B19 under the skoda body
there is no mention of which chassis he used
I am "surmising" with his north of england location he may have bought 1 of the 3 or 4 B19 21 23 cars that raced in scotland
this is NOT the Jim Evans car even though Whiting has AET backing

[edsmotors]

Originally Posted by henk4

here are B19-17 and the Ed Swart car, that Fangio was so proud of having beaten in Zandvoort in 1993. Pictures are from the pit roof, during that race.
17 is now run by Sandy Watson if that is the same car.
Now we have to find out what the Canon cars actually were...Somebody with contacts in the USA to ask Swart directly?

Sorry I am a little late with this reply and I think Allen has figured it out.
Great Chevron B19 webpage on his website. Yes nr.10A was my 1971 Canon car and in 1972 it was rented out to Theo Kinsbergen in our Dutch Team Radio Veronica. The car was sold in 1973 to Peter Wright.
Maybe the AM nr. was 12? At the time the numbers were not important and it is a long time ago.
My current B19 with a correct early original Chevron plate # 25 and HSCC, RAC and FIA papers, was the C.P. Howarth "unknown 2nd. car" restored by Brian Martin in 1980 sold to and raced by Tony Griffin. Sold to Sid Marler in 1984 and to me in 1989. Raced in Super Sports 1990-1995. Mostly by me but one season 1994 shared with John Burton.
In 1992 and 1993, I was first in 2.0 ltr class both years at Zandvoort and as far as I know not beaten by Fangio, who ever that is.
Car is in USA since 1996 and still actively raced in Historic races.
EdS.

[p261brm]

Having found myself back in the 'Chevron fold' [for my sins] working along side two other in 'period' nuts, the following obversation will not 'please' many researchers, owners, current or previous. Previously discussed were updates achieved almost on a daily basis resulted in no two cars being the same, similar etc. That aside, statements along the premise of 'that is or this is; the car that Ed Swart drove to' are at best mis-leading. Eds.... makes the point himself, restored in 1984; to what level? after a fairly hectic life in eds... hands, by 1984 I would say it was in a pretty pecarious state and ready for a major major rebuild, and apart from an original all magical chassis plate, not a lot of 'The Car' would be left, and that was at 12/13 years old, now take a 71 B19 at at 39!!, if and a big if it is near original, it should not be any where near a race circuit let alone on one.
A B16 recently stripped that was original the chassis weighed less than half than the original weight, the rest...rust. Little now remains of the car. except that magical Derek Bennett Engineering chassis plate, my respect for the man remains, the plate a suitable epitaph, but, it is not the car that left 105 Chorley Old Road, and the price, if for sale, should reflect that, and more importantly so should the statements made in reflection of the car's history.

[henk4]

you can always say that a car built around an original chassis plate and/or a piece of metal that happens to contain an inprint of the chassis/frame number continues the tradition of the original car, which due to the rust process has more or less ceased to exist. There is actually no theoretical difference, only timewise, between a rust affected restored car and a car heavily crashed in period. Things become messy when a completely new car starts adopting the identity of a car of which nothing original exists any more. For people who have followed the P3/P4 discussion regarding chassis 846, it is probably clear what I mean.

[allenbrown]

Sorry Stuart, I completely disagree. Several Chevron "period nuts" have tried to blow smoke around the question of authenticity but for all their wriggling, there is a world of difference between a car that has been extensively and repeatedly rebuilt and a car that has been built new for historic racing.

There is nothing at all "misleading" about tracing a car back through a series of owners and a series of rebuilds to its origins, as Ed and I have done on his car and the others with which he has been involved. However, it is very misleading to try to obfuscate this issue in an attempt to make new cars seem as genuine as heavily used ones. I know the obfuscation is not yours, but I am surprised you would buy into it.

I am very grateful to Ed for all his help on my Chevron B19 research and to the many other past and present owners who have helped. The picture becomes ever clearer.

[p261brm]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

Sorry Stuart, I completely disagree. Several Chevron "period nuts" have tried to blow smoke around the question of authenticity but for all their wriggling, there is a world of difference between a car that has been extensively and repeatedly rebuilt and a car that has been built new for historic racing.

There is nothing at all "misleading" about tracing a car back through a series of owners and a series of rebuilds to its origins, as Ed and I have done on his car and the others with which he has been involved. However, it is very misleading to try to obfuscate this issue in an attempt to make new cars seem as genuine as heavily used ones. I know the obfuscation is not yours, but I am surprised you would buy into it.

I am very grateful to Ed for all his help on my Chevron B19 research and to the many other past and present owners who have helped. The picture becomes ever clearer.

Allen pal I am not buying into a theory on any bodies behalf, your work and those who have assisted you [me included] in tracing various particular car histories are to be applauded, but and Allen it is a big but; being one who spent a great deal of time looking at a multitude of cars supposedly the bees knees only to find they are not, incorrect in a multitude of detail, and at the end have been heavily and continualy updated and rebuilt and then tell me it is the car that Jack raced, is pure and gross fabrication. If the magical chassis plate is attached to a car in as near as original guise as possible, including materials then I have sympathy with your view, most. in fact all are sat on new chassis, with new everything else, necessary to produce a safe for the driver and all around him, useable racing car, it is and never will be 'The car'. I have never subscribed to, or been connected with the theory that a 'continuation' is and as the same as one which sports that magical original plate, and the history connected to it. As for the 'papers' continuation cars have , they are the fault of the FIA, and no one else and my opinions on that organisation are best left for another tomb [a deliberate slip of finger ] and place,

[allenbrown]

Yes, I agree that a new chassis makes a car significantly less original but not significantly less authentic. I try to distinguish between originality and authenticity (as Jenks did in his seminal Directory of Historic Racing Cars in 1987); hardly any of the B19s are entirely Original (in Jenks' definition) because they were nearly all changed for 1972 but quite a few meet Jenks' definition of Authentic because they have never disappeared from view despite their many changes and rebuilds. Both Original and Authentic cars have historical value and can reasonably claim to be 'The car'. An Authentic car may be "wrong" in many ways, both through period changes to specification or more recent changes for reasons of safety or speed but that doesn't reduce its Authenticity.

Jenks reserved other terms for cars that existed where no car had existed before: Replicas, if built by the same firm or same builders, such as a Lola T70 built by Lola or a Chevron B16 built by whoever owns the right to the B16; Duplicates, if a car was split with some parts going one way and some another, an old trick in the Bugatti world; and Facsimile for cars built long after the original era. Some facsimiles are openly and honestly declared, like the Cameron Millar Maserati 250Fs or the Graypaul Ferrari 246s, but the origins of others are disguised by unscrupulous owners who, in Jenks' words, "first convince themselves they have bought a genuine car, and then try to convince the rest of the sporting world". Obfuscation is such owners' main weapon. Publishing facts is the main defence.

[p261brm]

Allen with respect, if you fit vented Discs to a B16 with 4 pot calipers it ceases to be an authentic in period car. A B23 being re-furbed at the moment is as original as any B23 in existance, to the point of the guy who assisted in the cars consrruction in 1974 is part and parcel of the re-furbe, but and here we go again it has a modification to the oil system, I care not one jot except do not offer 'original' as raced in etc as a statement of authenticity in period. Claims in respect of 'most' of the car is as it was, as an excuse for a claim 'it is' authentic are in my opinion false, and Jenks bless his memory changed his mind to suit the occasion, witness his lambasting of JYS in '72 [Motor Sport June 1972 page 612] and his later retraction on the subject, in doing so the later retraction did not and could not take the place of the original,
One thing is as sure as God [which ever one suits you] made little apples any car raced seriously today must above all else be safe, and authenticity matters for nothing in that respect.

[driftwood]

i have sat on the fence here with splinters in my derrier while you 2 swing yer handbags and i agree with both of your view points.
However I will fall in favour of Mr Browns " Jenks" view point as its logical and Jenks was no fool ! And i am not saying tother is a ninkumpoop !!

I do fully understand where P261 BRM is coming from cos he was a period spanner man worked on many cars back then and later and of course today with "restoration" work and race car preparation. I do not wish to insult his integrity or skills, but i think it may be fair to say that we are not in a time warp and things have moved on as did the 1971/2 car when running in 74 it was fiddled with
Maybe new rule changes? or amatuer car owner with spanner man looking at "updating" the design let alone the car wearing components out or crashing/being repaired it was mutating from its orignal factory build origins

So for arguments sake the 71 car is now in 1979 how much of that car is still original? we can pick on a specific chassi number to debate that part
This same car is then restored to race in 1981 for HSCC events runs another 5-8 years changes hands and has had service rebuilds in this time frame.
Then car lies dormant in lock up owner is skint cant race for 3 years then starts car rebuild process again for the 1990`s and now decides the chassis is tired weak flexing possibly had minor dings so installs new frame and all the other"original" components and races for another 3 years.
Now he sells car to new owner who then carries out more rebuild works to the car and installs newer parts maybe upright or 2 some wishbones OR the FIA crack testing thing dictates its cheaper to fit new parts than it is to crack test old parts and renickle etc

I think we need to be realistic on certain car components for original 1971 parts versus general wear n tear- accident damage replacement- logical replacement of parts on "Elf n safety" grounds and also consider the relevent chassis number of the car and its line of ownership history.

i will admit there are degrees of major bulls hitti`n going on with certain chassis numbers and people involved with those cars and add to this the FIA has really boogered it all up for everyone with this HTP nonsense.
Cars should have been graded gold silver bronze with a panel of 3 intelligent car inspectors historians and perhaps 2 "objective" parties ruling on a cars right to its grading so there was no shinanagins going on.
Add to all of this there are certain inspectors from different nations singing off a different Hymn sheet to our own intrepid inspectors !!!