[BTCC] BTCC 2022 season discussion, News and Rumours!

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

There have been a few drivers on the grid that have described the issues certain teams are experiencing, and when you consider all of the information you can glean an understanding.

The NAPA drivers have described how they received the hybrid parts in batches, and so ran certain tests with some parts fitted, but not all of the hybrid running.
Crees described how the team have been working on getting the new engine running in their car first, concentrating on that over the hybrid system. The theory being that if the hybrid fails, you can still hopefully be competitive. (Cars running with no hybrid is expected due to the configuration of the cooling system).
Some of the HARD. / Laser cars have been in the queue to go through the fabricators, getting the chassis/subframes reworked. This prevented them from getting on with some of the installation work.

Putting it all together, teams like HARD. have had to work with limited resources (compared to others) and get chassis/subframe work done, then integrate a new engine, before finally getting on with the hybrid installation.

Compared to Team Dynamics and WSR - they have been able to carry over their engine and have not needed the cage work, and so their full resource could be applied to the hybrid.

In hindsight - a new engine, hybrid system and ECU being installed at the same time was always going to be a challenge for the smaller teams on the grid. Perhaps it would have been better to phase their introduction?

Why does the cage need to be molded? Surely the new engine must have to fit an existing car without structural changes?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Why does the cage need to be molded? Surely the new engine must have to fit an existing car without structural changes?

Not necessarily structural changes for the new engine, but there will be differences in the way it is installed in the car compared to the Swindon unit.

And a lot of the cage work being done is not related to the engine install, but a more general refresh of the cages during the off season. Teams such as HARD. won't have the budget to do as much work on the cage during each season as WSR (for example) and so a lot of work will be held off until the winter. Over time, the alignment on the chassis will 'drift' - WSR would probably correct this each round, but HARD. might have to tolerate this discrepancy for longer.


There is only so much capacity at Willie Poole.......

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Ant25

As in Alfa and more

Unlikely to see a new model introduced when the teams are having to adapt to new engines and hybrid systems.

However - the following will all be in new builds:

Shedden - Chassis NGTC-18-007
Sutton - Chassis MBP-2021-012
Cammish - Chassis MBP-2021-011
Turkington - Chassis G20-023-06

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Not necessarily structural changes for the new engine, but there will be differences in the way it is installed in the car compared to the Swindon unit.

And a lot of the cage work being done is not related to the engine install, but a more general refresh of the cages during the off season. Teams such as HARD. won't have the budget to do as much work on the cage during each season as WSR (for example) and so a lot of work will be held off until the winter. Over time, the alignment on the chassis will 'drift' - WSR would probably correct this each round, but HARD. might have to tolerate this discrepancy for longer.


There is only so much capacity at Willie Poole.......

I am surprised TOCA didn't mandate that the engine mounts should be the same Clearly exhaust and cooling pipes will change but the cost of changing mounts etc on top of Hybrid and new Data logging kit must be crippling some teams at a time when money is short

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

I am surprised TOCA didn't mandate that the engine mounts should be the same Clearly exhaust and cooling pipes will change but the cost of changing mounts etc on top of Hybrid and new Data logging kit must be crippling some teams at a time when money is short

You need to take in to account that the engines are based on road going engines manufactured by different car companies, and therefore engine mountings are to be expected to be in varying places because not all road cars are built using the same sub-frames as happens in BTCC.

[Robin Marriott]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

You need to take in to account that the engines are based on road going engines manufactured by different car companies, and therefore engine mountings are to be expected to be in varying places because not all road cars are built using the same sub-frames as happens in BTCC.

They’ll be different but not significantly. The engines are pretty similar side by side, swapping from the Vauxhall based one to the Ford based one would be a few hours of CAD and a maybe a day of CNC on the mounts themselves.

The biggest issue is literally everything else would need changing. None of the Swindon type pipework would fit the M-Sport setup, there may be differences in driveshaft lengths if the engine is shorter or longer, the radiator might need to be a different design or capacity, intercooler location may need changing. If the turbo is in a different position the car itself may need some sheet metal massaging to suit. Etc etc etc…

Mounting it is the easy bit.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

I am surprised TOCA didn't mandate that the engine mounts should be the same Clearly exhaust and cooling pipes will change but the cost of changing mounts etc on top of Hybrid and new Data logging kit must be crippling some teams at a time when money is short

AFAIK - the engine mounting location points in the subframe have not changed.

What may have changed as a result of the new engine includes the installation specifics of:

Exhaust, Intercooler, Cooling system, Heating system, Lubrication system, Fuel and Fuel Circuit, Engine mounts.

It is also worth remembering that the Cupra is only 1 year old, and the Infiniti is only 2 years old. As a result, there is a higher likelihood that they will be using NGTC homologation jokers (During the first 12 months of the car’s homologation, it is permitted to have 5 jokers.)

[S griffin]

I don't think the engine mounting position will be affected too much by the Hybrids, but no doubt other parts will probably have had to be moved.

I expect the Cupra to go well this year, they are bound to have improved it. The Infiniti is bound to be updated too, but it might be tough for them in the beginning as they get to grips with the rules. It's gonna be interesting the rate of development this year, especially from cars that have not yet got the results

[antnee]

I'm surprised that the likes of HARD didn't get hold of the CAD and a 'mock' engine to design all the new bits. Then soon as the real engines turn up it makes things a lot easier.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by antnee

I'm surprised that the likes of HARD didn't get hold of the CAD and a 'mock' engine to design all the new bits. Then soon as the real engines turn up it makes things a lot easier.

Even if they had done that, the 'bits' still need fabricating.

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Turkington - Chassis G20-023-06

so they sold the old one to Turkington family ?

[antnee]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Even if they had done that, the 'bits' still need fabricating.

But you do that while MSport are still building the race engine - then when they turn up you should be able to drop it in place within a day, final tweaks/checks on all the systems and go testing.

[Robin Marriott]

Originally Posted by antnee

But you do that while MSport are still building the race engine - then when they turn up you should be able to drop it in place within a day, final tweaks/checks on all the systems and go testing.

Having previously worked for a company who did it, and therefore having actual, practical experience, I’m more than happy to say that it’d be almost impossible to fabricate those bits without the engine in place. You could make a jig for each part to replicate it in the future but you’d have no hope of doing the first ones without physical objects to work with/around.

[antnee]

Originally Posted by Robin Marriott

Having previously worked for a company who did it, and therefore having actual, practical experience, I’m more than happy to say that it’d be almost impossible to fabricate those bits without the engine in place. You could make a jig for each part to replicate it in the future but you’d have no hope of doing the first ones without physical objects to work with/around.

That's why you use a mock engine to jig everything up with. This is a Ford road car engine, not some 100% bespoke unit.

While Speedworks will have had a headstart on the hybrid bits (even though anything official says they haven't), they along with BTC and PMR are all going through the same level of change as HARD yet have all been able to turn out cars in time and get decent mileage in on the official tests. When did Speedworks/BTC/PMR get their new engines?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Robin Marriott

Having previously worked for a company who did it, and therefore having actual, practical experience, I’m more than happy to say that it’d be almost impossible to fabricate those bits without the engine in place. You could make a jig for each part to replicate it in the future but you’d have no hope of doing the first ones without physical objects to work with/around.

And, the fabrication is probably outsourced at HARD., which means they are in the queue alongside everyone else on the grid who wants work done on their cars. The chassis work and engine ancillary fabrication would probably be done at the same time, and there is only so much capacity in the workshops.

Getting to the bottom of any issues is not always simple and can take a whole season or more to get to the bottom of (just ask PMR about charge temperatures, Dynamics about intake flows or BMR about diff alignment).

There was an article previously that spoke in length with Motorbase's Oliver Collins, who explained the following:

“Since the NGTC rules have come in I think some people reckon we just get a kit of parts and bolt it together. And if you were to strip the car, as it stands now with all the development work done, you could indeed put it back together again in a matter of days. But it takes a hell of a long time to build one from scratch. It’s often simple things like brackets for the bodywork or the ducting for the intercooler that mount up.”

Whilst the teams are not building the cars from scratch - a new engine, hybrid system and ancillaries means they are definitely not just bolting in to an existing design.

[Robin Marriott]

Originally Posted by antnee

That's why you use a mock engine to jig everything up with. This is a Ford road car engine, not some 100% bespoke unit.

The block and head are potentially the same, the inlet manifold possibly although I’m not sure because the throttle body is a specified part, from what I can remember (in the pictures I can find, the inlet manifold doesn’t look like the standard 2.0 Ecoboost one)

So, best case scenario is that you’re able to make the offside engine mount and a couple of coolant hoses.

You can’t make the other engine mounts because they’re attached to the gearbox, which won’t bolt up to your new engine without an adapter plate or new bellhousing. You can’t make your boost pipes because you won’t have an exhaust manifold and therefore you don’t know the exact turbo location, same with the down pipe.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by antnee

When did Speedworks/BTC/PMR get their new engines?

PMR have already spoken about the issues they have experienced with their installation, running without hybrid power for a lot of testing while they concentrated on the new engine.

In contrast - Taylor-Smith got 53 laps completed with the new engine in FP2 at Donington Park on the 29th March (setting a time faster then either Speedworks car).

[CarfanLUFC]

Is Goff going to be replaced? Can't say I'm sorry to see him go with some of the nonsense he's been chirping recently.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by CarfanLUFC

Is Goff going to be replaced? Can't say I'm sorry to see him go with some of the nonsense he's been chirping recently.

There are a few indicators that Goff will be replaced.

"Team HARD came back with a new deal but unfortunately today, I found out from them that this is no longer possible." - if the deal is no longer possible, may suggest HARD. have another driver?
"leaving a vacancy in the Cupra squad" - which suggest the car is still there as a paid entry into the championship.
TBL ownership - all 29 TBLs are currently owned by a team, and so they only retain value if used. The owner is probably reluctant to return the TBL unused, and lose out on the asset.

[antnee]

Is it 2 missed rounds and you lose the TBL though?

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by CarfanLUFC

Is Goff going to be replaced? Can't say I'm sorry to see him go with some of the nonsense he's been chirping recently.

Agreed, however, I wonder if it is the reason why he's gone?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by antnee

Is it 2 missed rounds and you lose the TBL though?

I thought they were a season-long commitment.
Previously, wording from TOCA has been along the lines of "As a TOCA BTCC Licence (TBL) holder, all entries are obliged to contest all BTCC events unless in cases of force majeure."

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I thought they were a season-long commitment.
Previously, wording from TOCA has been along the lines of "As a TOCA BTCC Licence (TBL) holder, all entries are obliged to contest all BTCC events unless in cases of force majeure."

All of which depends on how TOCA want to define "force majeure". As I recall when TBLs were first introduced Gow said something to the effect that a lack of budget wasn't force majeure, but then this is TOCA and Gow we are talking about so anything is possible.

[Alfisti]

Expect the #Driver on #Friday.

#29Cars

And, no, I don't know the name of the driver.

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I thought they were a season-long commitment.
Previously, wording from TOCA has been along the lines of "As a TOCA BTCC Licence (TBL) holder, all entries are obliged to contest all BTCC events unless in cases of force majeure."

we remmeber smaller teams often didn't show up at Knockhill