[WEC] LMP1 where do we go from here?

[HORNDAWG]

Prototype International based on P-2 chassis (with maybe a couple more constructors added building to the P-2 spec for P-I only) with an OEM option for engines with aero/body kits. Maybe even some Tuner and Team aero/body re-homologations, but all within a tight box with BoP added.









L.P.

[canaglia]

if toyota doesn't drop WEC program, I'd expect a 1 car full season program with a 2nd car just for spa and le mans.

[MagVanisher]

Man, the FIA and ACO being slow to adapt after Porsche announced their departure is downright stupid and depressing at the same time.

They should have adapted the DPi ruleset unless they have plans for those LMP1 privateer teams.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Prototype International based on P-2 chassis (with maybe a couple more constructors added building to the P-2 spec for P-I only) with an OEM option for engines with aero/body kits. Maybe even some Tuner and Team aero/body re-homologations, but all within a tight box with BoP added.

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

Man, the FIA and ACO being slow to adapt after Porsche announced their departure is downright stupid and depressing at the same time.

They should have adapted the DPi ruleset unless they have plans for those LMP1 privateer teams.

possible the egos are too big and the necks too stiff for FIA to take the best route forward ... wouldn't that be too close to admitting they don't have all the best ideas and aren't right all the time?

it seems obvious that a ruleset based on DPi ... P2 or bespoke chassis (for those manufacturers who want to build them) and some provision so factories and tuners/specialty houses/ maybe even team conglomerates could participate ... let privateers in if they think they can afford it .... Have say, three homologation periods: one ends after the first race (build what you want, test it, race it once, make your mods and it is sealed) and the other two throughout the season ... so teams can also test their high- and low downforce kits.

Limiting development by time instead of money hopefully will keep a lid on costs---teams will focus on a few areas and upgrade and test thoroughly instead of always having new stuff all the time---not sure how to control costs but I cannot see open development and I cannot see no development all season long.

The benefit of having shared rulesets across nations is evident in P2: factories can sell the same cars to different series. if DPi could be included in or at least very close to P1 (obviously the tire differences alone would ensure that the FIA cars were faster, which I am sure they would demand) then factories might be willing to examine multiple programs ... I am sure FIA doesn't want to see Cadillac winning Le mans, but I am pretty sure they don't want to see Toyota being the only car in class and driving all night at 70 percent just to survive, and then racing the P2 teams for the overall the next day.

[chernaudi]

And we also have to remember that there was no scandal or tomfoolery when Audi and Porsche killed their prototype programs in the ALMS. They just got tired of doing most of the leg work with promotion and funding of the series, and not getting what they wanted in return.

IMO, the ACO have screwed up with putting all their eggs into the factory team basked like Don Panoz did.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

possible the egos are too big and the necks too stiff for FIA to take the best route forward ... wouldn't that be too close to admitting they don't have all the best ideas and aren't right all the time?

it seems obvious that a ruleset based on DPi ... P2 or bespoke chassis (for those manufacturers who want to build them) and some provision so factories and tuners/specialty houses/ maybe even team conglomerates could participate ... let privateers in if they think they can afford it .... Have say, three homologation periods: one ends after the first race (build what you want, test it, race it once, make your mods and it is sealed) and the other two throughout the season ... so teams can also test their high- and low downforce kits.

Limiting development by time instead of money hopefully will keep a lid on costs---teams will focus on a few areas and upgrade and test thoroughly instead of always having new stuff all the time---not sure how to control costs but I cannot see open development and I cannot see no development all season long.

The benefit of having shared rulesets across nations is evident in P2: factories can sell the same cars to different series. if DPi could be included in or at least very close to P1 (obviously the tire differences alone would ensure that the FIA cars were faster, which I am sure they would demand) then factories might be willing to examine multiple programs ... I am sure FIA doesn't want to see Cadillac winning Le mans, but I am pretty sure they don't want to see Toyota being the only car in class and driving all night at 70 percent just to survive, and then racing the P2 teams for the overall the next day.

Probably most likely








L.P.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

Man, the FIA and ACO being slow to adapt after Porsche announced their departure is downright stupid and depressing at the same time.

They should have adapted the DPi ruleset unless they have plans for those LMP1 privateer teams.

Even the ACO isn't dumb enough to tell 10 possible LMP1 entries with large investments from Toyota, Ginetta, and SMP to go pound sand for the zero cars that would show up to race DPi in WEC next season. There's no evidence any manufacturers anywhere are interested in racing that type of car in a world championship, because I can 100% guarantee you Cadillac and Acura can and will not race outside of North America, and the Nissan is a privateer car run by a team that could be in WEC if they wanted to be. Mazda would like to go to Le Mans for cheap but that's far short of doing the championship.

The entire argument in favour of DPi was that America wasn't Europe and the rest of the world, and needed to do things different. Are you all going to ignore that now? Oh wait I forgot the other argument about "LMP2 is too restricted, we need a more open category!", yet you would kill an open category for LMP2 with ricer body kits and engine swaps because you mistakenly think a small block Chevy will win Le Mans. Pathetic hypocrisy.

Putting that aside if there's one hill for the ACO to die on, it's not having Le Mans' top class be a bloody BoP category. That's completely and utterly against the spirit and 85 years of tradition of the race they've worked to protect.

[YZFrider]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

Even the ACO isn't dumb enough to tell 10 possible LMP1 entries with large investments from Toyota, Ginetta, and SMP to go pound sand for the zero cars that would show up to race DPi in WEC next season. There's no evidence any manufacturers anywhere are interested in racing that type of car in a world championship, because I can 100% guarantee you Cadillac and Acura can and will not race outside of North America, and the Nissan is a privateer car run by a team that could be in WEC if they wanted to be. Mazda would like to go to Le Mans for cheap but that's far short of doing the championship.

The entire argument in favour of DPi was that America wasn't Europe and the rest of the world, and needed to do things different. Are you all going to ignore that now? Oh wait I forgot the other argument about "LMP2 is too restricted, we need a more open category!", yet you would kill an open category for LMP2 with ricer body kits and engine swaps because you mistakenly think a small block Chevy will win Le Mans. Pathetic hypocrisy.

Putting that aside if there's one hill for the ACO to die on, it's not having Le Mans' top class be a bloody BoP category. That's completely and utterly against the spirit and 85 years of tradition of the race they've worked to protect.

Was about to type nearly everything you just wrote. Couldn't agree more. The Porsche pullout hurts but the organizers for LeMans aren't going to allow their flagship class become a controlled, cost-capped, technologically neutered equaliZed playground. And while we are speaking of egos let's not forget the craftiness of IMSA/France family reps that helped shape the P2 regs. All the reports indicated IMSA wanting it their way only to realize it's a bigger world in sportscar land. Compromise is how you get things done

[Maelochs]

Just wanted to point out to everyone who is so glad that WEC's top class wasn't BoP'd ... wasn't EoT one of the big reasons Audi left?

Oh, right different initials.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

Even the ACO isn't dumb enough to tell 10 possible LMP1 entries with large investments from Toyota, Ginetta, and SMP to go pound sand for the zero cars that would show up to race DPi in WEC next season. There's no evidence any manufacturers anywhere are interested in racing that type of car in a world championship, because I can 100% guarantee you Cadillac and Acura can and will not race outside of North America, and the Nissan is a privateer car run by a team that could be in WEC if they wanted to be. Mazda would like to go to Le Mans for cheap but that's far short of doing the championship.

The entire argument in favour of DPi was that America wasn't Europe and the rest of the world, and needed to do things different. Are you all going to ignore that now? Oh wait I forgot the other argument about "LMP2 is too restricted, we need a more open category!", yet you would kill an open category for LMP2 with ricer body kits and engine swaps because you mistakenly think a small block Chevy will win Le Mans. Pathetic hypocrisy.

Putting that aside if there's one hill for the ACO to die on, it's not having Le Mans' top class be a bloody BoP category. That's completely and utterly against the spirit and 85 years of tradition of the race they've worked to protect.

Agreed with most of what you said. This "adopt DPi" idea is nice on paper. But where are these DPi manufacturer's who want to run the WEC? I haven't seen anything suggesting they'd sign up for the series, only that it'd be nice to enter LM with their car. You can't just say, "Ok, DPi's are allowed in the wec in lmp1" and suddenly Caddy, ESM, Mazda and Penske jump in. They're not going there next year. They are in another series already and they'd have to upgrade their car, get testing on new tires etc. They might want to join in 2019, but who's to say they wouldn't have to change their cars again for 2020 unless they're privateer entries. Which they are not. So the ACO has more on it's hands than just a simple "yes" answer to DPi being allowed.

[chernaudi]

Also, we have to remember that even if they ACO reached out to them, I don't think that DPI teams would be knocking down the doors to run LM. Outside of JDC, most of the IMSA DPI/LMP2 teams don't seem to have any LM aspirations.

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Just wanted to point out to everyone who is so glad that WEC's top class wasn't BoP'd ... wasn't EoT one of the big reasons Audi left?

Oh, right different initials.

No - they left for one reason and one reason only - Dieselgate

[chernaudi]

Then why are Porsche gone? I've heard and read that a lot of the things that Porsche aren't happy about (ACO rulings, promotion, returns on investment) are the same things Audi Sport reportedly weren't happy about.

Also, Daimler were in bigger trouble if anything than VAG were and they still have a F1 team, and though they killed their DTM program, DTM is probably a fraction of what Mercedes-Benz spends on F1 every season.

I suspect that at DSC/RLM that Graham and Hindy aren't on the same page. Given that Hindy was saying that Porsche could be gone as early as last year. And he and others said that the EOT being what it was certainly ticked Audi Sport off.

Not to mention spending $150+million a year to win two races in each of their last three seasons didn't help when they spent between 1/2 and 2/3 that to win 6 races in 2013 alone.

I think that there's a lot more involved than just dieselgate. I think it's like Hindy said a while back on Midweek Motorsports FB page, that it's politics within VAG and between VAG and the ACO that was the deciding factor.

[carbsmith]

Dieselgate pretty much encompasses the entire German auto industry at this point.

If you look purely at personnel and budgets it makes more sense for Mercedes to drop DTM (which is run in house and uses a similar spec chassis) for Formula E than Formula 1 (which is a BAR-Ilmor) and it makes more sense for Porsche to drop LMP1 (which is in house) for Formula E than GTE (which is Manthey and CORE)

[chernaudi]

And I don't think that Germany is alone in this. I'll bet that if you look, every EU-based automaker, NA automakers and even Japanese automakers probably engage in some shafting of consumers and governments, like every other industry you can think of.

You have to remember that GM and FCA are getting sued over diesel emissions tomfoolery, Nissan/Renault got sued over lying about fuel economy figures, and Ford and Hyundai/Kia got sued for the same thing.

And yet they're still making profits like the oil/petrochemical industry. Defecting to Formula E is a PC move. And it's not like what VAG did has actually killed people, unlike the GM ignition switch deal. It's all about image and appealing to those who are young racing fans or trying to lure more fans in--at the expense of the diehard and long term fans. Same thing that's ruining NASCAR.

But when you also have someone from the WEC and ACO admit to DSC that the ACO basically screwed up with their LMP1 rules, IMO, that says more than dieselgate does. We have to remember that GM was semi-nationalized under the Obama Administration and were insanely in debt. That didn't stop their racing programs. VAG isn't in debt and I'd bet that the man on the street either doesn't know or doesn't care about dieselgate.

This is motivated by image and wanting to get out of a dying series without saying any other (IMO more pertinent) reasons for doing so/not throwing anyone under the bus.

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Then why are Porsche gone? I've heard and read that a lot of the things that Porsche aren't happy about (ACO rulings, promotion, returns on investment) are the same things Audi Sport reportedly weren't happy about.

Also, Daimler were in bigger trouble if anything than VAG were and they still have a F1 team, and though they killed their DTM program, DTM is probably a fraction of what Mercedes-Benz spends on F1 every season.

I suspect that at DSC/RLM that Graham and Hindy aren't on the same page. Given that Hindy was saying that Porsche could be gone as early as last year. And he and others said that the EOT being what it was certainly ticked Audi Sport off.

Not to mention spending $150+million a year to win two races in each of their last three seasons didn't help when they spent between 1/2 and 2/3 that to win 6 races in 2013 alone.

I think that there's a lot more involved than just dieselgate. I think it's like Hindy said a while back on Midweek Motorsports FB page, that it's politics within VAG and between VAG and the ACO that was the deciding factor.

So many points!

OK - Porsche are unlikely to mention the words 'dieselgate' and 'cartel' in any public statement now are they - it is a fact though that the first recall of their vehicles on emissions revelations was the very same day that they announced their withdrawal. The fallout from those issues are the two biggest threats to traditional factory-backed motorsport in play right now.

The value they were drawing from WEC was certainly an issue - and they and other factory efforts need to accept their own part in activation - or at times lack of it - but principally that was because they had already won everything there was to win - at least twice.

Porsche's marketing approach was significantly different from Audi's. Audi never had any doubt that their LMP1 programme was paying dividends - Privately their figures made it VERY clear that they were doing much better via LMP1 than they would via F1.

Audi did not withdraw because of EoT - They may not have been happy about it but it was NOT the reason they went.

Also there was MAJOR unhappiness at Audi Sport that they left LMP1 but were still in DTM.

The budgets for LMP1 were not the issue either for Audi or Porsche - indeed they were driving the costs upwards. Both acknowledge massive pluses in R&D via their LMP1 programmes - as do Toyota.

Porsche's withdrawal was not a surprise, and certainly not a shock but there are a number of ways that one can prepare for it, respond to it and comment upon it.

I was very much in the loop amongst those that were examining evidence, analysing it and coming to conclusions - The reality until this week was that no decision had been taken, though it was looking increasingly likely to be made. In those circumstances it's completely correct to report that there are doubts, entirely incorrect to say a decision has been made.

Beyond this week's sad news though, whilst the budgets necessary for success are the oft quoted reason behind a lack of new blood in recent seasons, the bigger reason is the ability of any newcomer to reach the stratospheric level of the three factory teams in a reasonable period of time.

The reality behind the politicking around new entrants is that it is just as much about prompting at least a soft reset of technology, to negate the advantage of current competitors, as it is about pure reduction of cost

[chernaudi]

Maybe then the ACO should've have gone there in the first place. Not everyone wants to run hybrids anyways. As mentioned, when you have someone from the ACO who's in charge of the WEC's Endurance Committee basically admit that after Audi Sport left that they screwed up with their own formula, that too me speaks volumes.

And also, why didn't Audi Sport just revert back to running a gasoline engine? That's as big a mea culpa as them defecting to Formula E in light of dieselgate. And them staying in DTM might be a moot point if BMW decides to leave after Mercedes-Benz did.

I think that a lot of these moves are being made to cover up dieselgate and distract people--which, granted, the average person in the street probably doesn't know, or care about dieselgate.

People don't buy hybrids or diesels because of emissions, it's because of fuel economy. In that way, I'd argue that hybrids are a bit of a scam in their own right because they only get good mileage in city. On a highway, they don't get any better fuel economy.

And it's not like as I've said that VAG are alone--eventually everyone will probably be found guilty or accused of some wrong doing, mostly due to screwing people out of money, vs any actual legal obligations. IMO it's just a witch hunt and the only people who will be happy at the end of the day are greedy ambulance chasing lawyers.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Just wanted to point out to everyone who is so glad that WEC's top class wasn't BoP'd ... wasn't EoT?

Oh, right different initials.

L.P.

[Akrapovic]

Balancing energy outputs isn't quite the same as moving weights and air restrictors around on a race by race basis. If they were the same thing then Toyota would not have been 3 seconds a lap slower in 2015, they'd have been brought up a bit as that's how BoP works. The BoP balances cars in every way (including aero). The EoT is a way of balancing maximum energy outputs from different combinations of fuels and hybrid sizes. It didn't balance a bad car into a good one, which is what BoP does.

I see the point trying to be made, but that's a very simplistic way of looking at it. It's like suggesting a sniper rifle and a shotgun are interchangeable because they both fire metal.

This post isn't defend EoT or attacking BoP. Right now I'm watching Spa and the BoP is absolutely perfect, and the BoP in IMSA is great too. So I'm not attacking or defending either system. But suggesting they are the same is a simplification of a very complicated process.

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

And also, why didn't Audi Sport just revert back to running a gasoline engine? That's as big a mea culpa as them defecting to Formula E in light of dieselgate. And them staying in DTM might be a moot point if BMW decides to leave after Mercedes-Benz did.

The main reasoning behind 2 x VAG companies in LMP1 was the difference in tech - 2 x petrol engined cars did not make sense - Audi was effectively a very public sacrifice/ penance

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

The main reasoning behind 2 x VAG companies in LMP1 was the difference in tech - 2 x petrol engined cars did not make sense - Audi was effectively a very public sacrifice/ penance

With the withdrawal of Porsche, does it open the door for an Audi return with a petrol engine? There will no longer be a conflict. Or has that horse already bolted from the stable? Will be interesting to see what happens with Audis DTM program now Mercedes has gone.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Balancing energy outputs isn't quite the same as moving weights and air restrictors around on a race by race basis. If they were the same thing then Toyota would not have been 3 seconds a lap slower in 2015, they'd have been brought up a bit as that's how BoP works. The BoP balances cars in every way (including aero). The EoT is a way of balancing maximum energy outputs from different combinations of fuels and hybrid sizes. It didn't balance a bad car into a good one, which is what BoP does.

I see the point trying to be made, but that's a very simplistic way of looking at it. It's like suggesting a sniper rifle and a shotgun are interchangeable because they both fire metal.

This post isn't defend EoT or attacking BoP. Right now I'm watching Spa and the BoP is absolutely perfect, and the BoP in IMSA is great too. So I'm not attacking or defending either system. But suggesting they are the same is a simplification of a very complicated process.

Simplistic or not, balancing is balancing and not the 'PURE' .. 'Spirit of 85 Years' as suggested here ...

Putting that aside if there's one hill for the ACO to die on, it's not having Le Mans' top class be a bloody BoP category. That's completely and utterly against the spirit and 85 years of tradition of the race they've worked to protect.

L.P.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Simplistic or not, balancing is balancing and not the 'PURE' .. 'Spirit of 85 Years' as suggested here ...


L.P.

Yeah for sure, it isn't as pure as some claim. But there will also be people who claim all race car tech makes its way to road cars, and all that silliness. As always, it is more complex than that.

Balancing technology theory and then allowing open development of those avenues is not the same as BoP. I'm not saying EoT and BoP is bad, and I'm not arguing purity and spirit, etc. But they aren't the same thing.

[chernaudi]

I don't think we'll see Audi Sport--or probably anyone, for that matter--prior to 2020. I'm also betting that cost might have to go down to at least pre 2014 levels or DTM has to collapse or they decide to spend less money on it before Audi Sport come back.

There could also be a chance that Porsche might come back in, though I'm skeptical about that if some of their off the record comments about 2020 regs are fact instead of rumor.

And I don't think we should lose sight of the last couple of sentences in Graham's post. LMP1 might have been able to survive (at least better) if the class was more open and accessible. I don't think that Audi Sport and Porsche pulling out would be as big a deal if we had 4-5 other manufacturers rather than just one outside of VAG owned operations. I think that the "go big or go home" mentality that the ACO tried to appeal to was at fault there, just as an observer's opinion.

The ball is in the ACO's court. Will they learn from this, of continue down a path that doesn't, at least outside looking in, make much sense?

[deggis]

Interesting opinion piece by Darren Cox (still remember him?)...

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/op...-changing-week