New Track Design

[ScotsBrutesFan]

You seem to be ignoring the fact that leaving the pits will be going straight into the racing line.

Given the nature of the design, if the end of the pitlane speed limit is at the blue line I've indicated, then cars leaving the pits will be travelling faster than those on the track accelereating off the hairpin apex.
Assuming that a driver is looking in the direction of the arrows (ie where he's going) he may not see a faster car coming out of the pitlane.

To go back to Luiggispeed's version, yes the wall would need to extend a bit, but an accident that far around the corner is unlikely.
I've added to Luiggispeeds graphic showing how safe that exit would be, even more so with the added "don't cross" line. THe next corner is right handed so the racing line (in Yellow) is on the left of the circuit.

The suggestion of an accident victim being collected by someone coming out of the pitlane, I'd say was would be much higher with this latest revision (site plan 5) than Luiggispeed's.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

You seem to be ignoring the fact that leaving the pits will be going straight into the racing line.

Given the nature of the design, if the end of the pitlane speed limit is at the blue line I've indicated, then cars leaving the pits will be travelling faster than those on the track accelereating off the hairpin apex.
Assuming that a driver is looking in the direction of the arrows (ie where he's going) he may not see a faster car coming out of the pitlane.

To go back to Luiggispeed's version, yes the wall would need to extend a bit, but an accident that far around the corner is unlikely.
I've added to Luiggispeeds graphic showing how safe that exit would be, even more so with the added "don't cross" line. THe next corner is right handed so the racing line (in Yellow) is on the left of the circuit.

The suggestion of an accident victim being collected by someone coming out of the pitlane, I'd say was would be much higher with this latest revision (site plan 5) than Luiggispeed's.

and this is partly why I believe the track must go Clock wise. also a 180* corner that close after the start line may be accidents waiting to happen.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

and this is partly why I believe the track must go Clock wise. also a 180* corner that close after the start line may be accidents waiting to happen.

Unfortunately the other end of the pit, if run clockwise has similar issues.

[AU N EGL]

Rember Matt mentioned this will be a club track. So races with pit stops most likely will not happen.

And club events, if you make a pit stop, your out of conection. PLUS there are Grid out Marshals, who let you know when the track is clear for you to exit the pits.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

What Matt said was...

Originally Posted by matarleton

Temporary grandstands (what you see on golf courses for tournaments) will be brought in for larger races if we have them. Lots of trackside viewing opportunities. This track is a semi-private country club.
Matt

That's a description of the setting ... 2.6 miles to FIA standards isis the track description and that isn't a clubbie venue.

This would be in the realms of FIA Grade 2, so could host sportcar type events, which would neccessitate proper pit exits.

Though I'm sure Matt will clarify in due course.

[LuiggiSpeed]

Originally Posted by matarleton

What worries me about Luiggispeeds revision is that of a car comes out of the turn too fast and slides off, they will plow into an exiting vehicle on the pit road. Solution to that is to line that pit road all the way down with a wall. Then we are back to reduced runoff area and if it runs clockwise, a wall stcking out towards the track.

Matt

I'm a little confused here, I thought that was my main concern as well and I put gravel+tire barrier+concrete wall to protect inocent ,exiting cars.They should be pretty protected with that. Did I attached the right pic ,or maybe I screwed up again..?

Just in case, I'll repost with the green line representing exiting cars and the red line/ area representing sliding cars and the trajectory they would likely follow, based on my own experience crashing and watching hundreds of heats in a similar hairpin.(see previous pics)


I don't think it will be anti-economic to put out 150 more meters of asphalt in a 300 million dollars proyect.

[matarleton]

Your redline (I assume to be the car sliding off) is shown with the track going clockwise. The design is meant to be a counterclockwise design at this point.

I'll post another revision later since it looks like this project is close to getting a green light.

Matt

[bio]

Thx, Matt, for this comment - I was starting to think i completely misunderstood the concept...

Glad to know I didn't and it's really CCW...

[LuiggiSpeed]

Originally Posted by matarleton

Your redline (I assume to be the car sliding off) is shown with the track going clockwise. The design is meant to be a counterclockwise design at this point.

I'll post another revision later since it looks like this project is close to getting a green light.

Matt

I apologyze at this point , I have totally screwd up, you're completely right I misunderstood the whole thing!!!! back to the drawing board!!!

[bio]

For those hard to see the track in the pdf version, here's a single line interpretation:

[matarleton]

Revision 6

Dashed line is a pit line of showing where the pit exiting car cannot cross.

This should do it.

Matt

[LuiggiSpeed]

Pit in is perfect IMHO(now I'm looking it at the right way) pit out is good , I restate the idea I had for it as an "in" still makes sense as an out as well if you want to over-kill but v 6 is OK as well, racers should exercise care when exiting as there's still some lateral displacement from hot cars,the farther up the less of that effect.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Racers will use all the available tarmac, that means those on track will run into the pitlane exit as part of their sweeping exit of the hairpin.

Again I'd have a concern about the cars on track actually seeing cars exit from the "mouth" of the pitlane at speed whilst keeping their racing line across the pit exit line forcing cars leaving the pits but now on the track nowhere to go...remember it's only "Don't cross" for cars leaving the pits.

It's your best revision so far, but it still has difficulties.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

Racers will use all the available tarmac, that means those on track will run into the pitlane exit as part of their sweeping exit of the hairpin.

That is where "Control" as we call that person here in the States Holds or Releases cars out of the pits.

[matarleton]

Even then, with or without "pit control", racers will have to actually take some care in their driving. What a concept! I did a version where pit lane was extended down farther but it placed exiting cars in as much jeopardy of track cars over running their line and hitting the pit exit vehciles. At least with this exit, the pit lane vehicles are exiting outside of the racing line.

Keep in mind that with the hairpin and the curve of the pit road, exiting vehicles and on track vehicles will be traveling at a far lesser speed than some other pit exits with other tracks.

Every revision has had some aspect to it that doesn't work. I belive perfection here is not going to be possible. In fact, I can think of many tracks I have raced where pit in and out were far from perfect.

Matt

[matarleton]

Originally Posted by LuiggiSpeed

Pit in is perfect IMHO(now I'm looking it at the right way) pit out is good , I restate the idea I had for it as an "in" still makes sense as an out as well if you want to over-kill but v 6 is OK as well, racers should exercise care when exiting as there's still some lateral displacement from hot cars,the farther up the less of that effect.

Lateral displacement from cars will put exiting cars in jeopardy on the pit lane no matter how far it is moved up. solution would be to line the pitlane further around with a wall. Net result is less view of cars exiting pit road and reduced runoff for cars which may run too wide.

Matt

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

That is where "Control" as we call that person here in the States Holds or Releases cars out of the pits.

I understand that but where would this person be?

Surely this person is at the pitlane speed limit line...would you really want the pit lane limit to extend all the way around the outside of the hairpin? And then have cars returning to the track coming off the limiter or worse have this control person try to stop cars already off the pit limiter from entering the track? Then allow them from a standing start after being held?

Surely the whole point of a pit exit lane is to allow the cars to rejoin safely at a reasonable speed.

As I demonstrated in the second image of this post moving the pit exit further around, removes the need for someone on the pit exit. The control would be the Blue line and he would only need to hold cars if the pace car (and gaggle behind it) is at the hairpin.
The exit onto the track itself, is off the racing line and a "don't cross" line prevents those comming from the pits getting in the way of faster cars.

Yes it means a bit more wall, I'd argue that the space taken up at that point while removing, what 5 ft of run-off? Adds to the overall asfety of the track.

[mattt]

being in charge of the exit lights, isn't particularly easy(i've done it several times) as its very difficult to judge the speed of cars coming down the straight, corner speed etc.
Even when its timed to perfection you will get cars not expecting a red light(Hamilton in Canada), who tries to go when theres a red light. Also with this method it would be so open to blame for loss of a victory eg. winning car was held for 2 secs after pitstop, 2 nd car was held for 5 seconds and lost by 2 seconds. - who would they blame for loosing, the driver no, the pit lane exit marshal

[matarleton]

Your proposal is based upon a racing line that is incorrect. The hairpin would be taken as a late apex turn thus maximizing straight acceleration and speed. The final radius of the racing line would be greater and thus extend the full unwinding of the turn farther down the track. Furthermore, extending pit lane farther down the track then while the race line is setting up to the outside for T2 does not allow entering racers to safely do the same without jumping into line thus placing them automatically on the indside of the racing line for T2. This could create a big mess if a racer is carrying speed into T2 and then all of a sudden (becuase they would see him exiting the pits well because of the extended wall) he has a vehicle to the inside of him that he may have to comensate for into T2. I believe if you study the racing line as indicated on my image you will find that the racing line is much farther down the track than your racing line estimates.

Trying not to be over critical of your evaluation but your exit reduces runoff area at one of the most dangerous runoff points, jumps cars back onto the track to close to T2 and would prevent visibility for on track cars of the pit road exit and vice versa.

Your input has been very helpful in causing me to overanalyze a problem area and fix it.

Matt

[matarleton]

I don't believe there would be any need for pit road exit marshalls holding cars during a race unless, as mentioned above, a safety car was bringing cars around the hairpin. During practice and club events it may be necessary during the whole track time to have pit road signals because of different conditions, communications, etc.

Matt

[ScotsBrutesFan]

I'll give this one more go and then we'll have to agree to disagree....

In the attached image, the Blue line at the end of the "pit road" marks the control line...also the point where the pit limiter or speed limit ends.
Cars would then have the length of the pit lane exit to regain a reasonable and safe speed.

The pit exit lane rejoins the track beyond your designated racing line, with a "Don't Cross" line in place to prevent cars leaving the pits and interferring with those on the racing line. The exact position of this would require more specific information regarding the length of the straight between T1 and T2.

Cars exiting T1 would see cars returning to the track in front of them, but staying to the right hand side of the track. The racing line would take these cars parallel to those exiting the pits. Again the exact end position of the "Don't Cross" line would require more detailed information.

Likewise the width of the track would determine whether overtaking was possible into T2, and whether cars exiting the pits would interfer with such an overtake.

In response to your wall issue, I've shown a slightly different angle to the pit exit lane and extended your gravel trap accordingly.

I think this discussion on the whole has highlighted the difficulties of having a hairpin T1 and the resultant pit lane exit position...one of the reasons I asked near the start of this thread about how set in stone the design was.

Regardless of whether we agree or end up disagreeing, it's been a useful exercise from which I hope fantasy designers reading this gain an insight for their future endeavours.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

I understand that but where would this person be?

Surely this person is at the pitlane speed limit line...would you really want the pit lane limit to extend all the way around the outside of the hairpin? And then have cars returning to the track coming off the limiter or worse have this control person try to stop cars already off the pit limiter from entering the track? Then allow them from a standing start after being held?

Surely the whole point of a pit exit lane is to allow the cars to rejoin safely at a reasonable speed.

As I demonstrated in the second image of this post moving the pit exit further around, removes the need for someone on the pit exit. The control would be the Blue line and he would only need to hold cars if the pace car (and gaggle behind it) is at the hairpin.
The exit onto the track itself, is off the racing line and a "don't cross" line prevents those comming from the pits getting in the way of faster cars.

Yes it means a bit more wall, I'd argue that the space taken up at that point while removing, what 5 ft of run-off? Adds to the overall asfety of the track.

Like Road America there is a Signal light at Pit exit or Pit OUT regulated by Control. at Road America Pit Exit is 50 yards down from Control position

You know how hard it is to drive 50 yards at 45 mph down pit exit??

[LuiggiSpeed]

I see SBF point,he took the exit to a farther point where racing line already starts going to the left in prep for t2 more or less my p.o.v.

[LuiggiSpeed]

Is it possible to spit out the cars near the s/f line?

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by LuiggiSpeed

Is it possible to spit out the cars near the s/f line?

That is what we do at My home track VIRginia International Raceway, and Carolina Motor sports park

Pit exit is just after the S/F line but before a major corner.