club racing fire extinguishers

[Eric Falce]

What are the rules on fire extinguishers for club racing cars.When do they have to be serviced if at all,I did read somewhere that there are a new set of rules coming into play soon for new extinguishers.

[MikeHoyer]

Sorry, posted in the wrong place!

[Tim Falce]

Read section Q3 of the Blue book, all answers in there. You should get it serviced according to the manufacturers recommendations. For the MSA it needs to be fully charged with the gauge viewable and weigh the correct weight.

[ss_collins]

the new regs for extinguishant are flawed I feel that halon was far better at putting out fires and that zero 2000 and AFFF are no use at all

[Tim Falce]

Thats why we need such big extinguishers now, but if Halon is illegal then what choice do we have?

[R59]

Halon is illegal for a couple of reasons. 1. is to do with it being nasty for the environment, and 2. it will kill you if you inhale it (or make you not very well at all if you're lucky!)

AFFF is only really useful when used with a dry powder extinguisher such that one knocks out the flame, the other caps it. Fires put out with AFFF quite often re-ignite - the rally boys will remember the two high profile cases where some nice historic cars were burnt out even though the driver/navigator emptied their AFFF extinguishers on the cars.

AFFF isn't a lot of cop for fuel and metal fires. ABC (as known because it's for category A B & C fires) Powder - which is the extinguishant carried by law on all HAZCHEM carrying vehicles, is effective in fuel and metal fires, but it's not on the MSA list for some reason. It's cheap as chips, and works well (very well when used together with AFFF). I carried an ABC extinguisher in my car alongside the AFFF, one safety scrutineer thought it a very prudent idea, another jobsworth pointed out the part in the blue book which says that dry powder may not be used. That, I feel should be re-worded to preclude the use of halon propelled dry powder.

Bottom line is this - how many cars have you seen where there is a fire nozzle pointing at the driver? What does an extinguishant do? (A)= it removes the oxidising agent from the fire = oxygen. What do you need to breathe to survive ......
So - are you going to carry on pointing that nozzle at yourself, and point it at one of the many possible seats of fire? How many nozzles will you fit to your car? Makes plumbed in systems sound stupid doesn't it? We'd all be better with big h/held cans, and providing we're trained how to use them effectively, they'll be just that - effective.

Mind you, they're not a lot of good when you're in the car, in the barrier, on fire, unconcious.... nasty thought, but think it when you choose your overalls.
And that was another thread...

Rob.

[greenamex2]

In answer to the original question. If you haven't got a valid service sticker on your extinguisher then certain scrutineers at certain circuits will NOT pass you at scruntineering.

The service interval for Lifeline extinguishers is two years.

[S_Morrell]

Hi All
I read this thread with interest and wanted to add my comments/observations.

The original question related to servicing of fire extinguishers. Although the blue book hints that this is not mandatory, I would suggest that it is a good thing to do. Extinguishers usually fall into two groups – gas cartridge and stored pressure types.
The former has a little cylinder inside it (like a bigger version of one of the old Sparklets cylinders). This is punctured when the extinguisher is operated – releasing its gas into the extinguisher and therefore pressurising it ready for use. This way, the extinguisher is stored in an un-pressurised state until ready to use.
The latter type (stored pressure) is continually under pressure and ready to use. It can easily be distinguished from a gas cartridge unit as there is an external pressure gauge. This is the type most often used in on-board extinguishers.
Because it is a pressurised container, it needs to be serviced to ensure that the integrity of the container is complete (amongst other things). There have been (very rare) instances of ruptured containers in the past.
Also, both type of extinguisher have a limited life as the extinguishant (particularly water types) can rust the inside of the container and thus weaken it.

The thread then moved on to discuss extinguishant types.
AFFF (Aqueous Film Forming Foam) is the weapon of choice for in car systems according to the blue book and fights fire in two ways. Firstly, the water in the extinguishant cools down the fire (one of the 3 sides of the fire triangle). Secondly, it forms a very thin film over the surface which helps to keep oxygen (another part of the fire triangle) from coming into contact with the flammable material to hopefully prevent re-ignition. This works very well on fuel fires as it floats on top of the fuel – thus ‘sealing’ it. It is also very effective on class ‘A’ fires due to its cooling properties. However, from experience, it is more challenging to ‘knock down’ a fire using this type.
Dry Powder (there are different varieties – E.g. A, B, C powder and B, C powder) are used by Marshals in conjunction with AFFF. The powder extinguishant decomposes with heat and gives off carbon dioxide – thus displacing oxygen to the point where the flame is no longer sustainable. However, once it disperses, re-ignition may occur.
In a racing car, there are disadvantages to using powder. They include; the extinguishant is usually quite directional (not really applicable inside a car as it gets everywhere); it makes breathing difficult for the driver; it is a swine to clean off – particularly after it gets damp and cakes on.
Finally, I’ll comment on Halon types. Racing59 correctly stated that Halon types are no longer legal or available to the general public. They were phased out over a period of time as it is believed that they deplete the ozone layer. However, alternatives are starting to make it onto the market such as LF200 Liquefiable gas and 3M’s Novec fire protection fluid. As far as I know, the MSA are investigating Halon alternatives with a view to approving them for use in cars. I don’t know how far along this investigation is – perhaps someone else can comment on this.
The advantages of this type of extinguishant is that they effectively knock down the fire by interfering with the chemical reaction that takes place when fuels burn. Oxygen normally remains at a breathable level. Whilst it is true that it is difficult to breathe in the presence of a deployed Halon, I would submit that it is still easier on the lungs than a dry powder type.
However, like dry powder, it quickly disperses leaving the possibility of re-ignition. But, it leaves little or no residue and is therefore more car friendly

If I now consider a vehicle fire – this is only my opinion BTW - my preferred weapon is dry powder. Whilst Racing59 is correct that this is messy and chews away at the available oxygen inside a cockpit, a fire will consume oxygen much faster and the driver will begin to inhale hot gas or flame – inducing airway trauma which is immediately life threatening.
The AFFF on board extinguisher will slow down the onset of fire but I don’t think it is 100% effective. It is good as a first aid system but I would submit that external assistance from the marshals is a must.
I’m a bit ambivalent about having on-board dry powder. Whilst it will knock down flame better than AFFF, it will not cool the fire and will make a horrible mess. Given that most fires are in the engine bay, I think AFFF is effective. For all other fires, you’re going to need the help of the marshals anyway.

Like I said, these are just my opinions and they may differ from others. However, I hope my (lengthy) comments above are useful. I’d be happy to expand on any of the above points if required.

Best regards
Simon Morrell

[MikeM]

Thanks for that Si, interesting thread and worthwhile comments - thanks.

[lifeline-fire]

Hi

Extinguishers in Race/rally cars causes a great deal of debate. The primary aim of a system is to give the driver/co driver a time envelope to hold back the intensity of the fire to allow outside assistance to get to the scene.

In 1993 under the Montreal Protocol the manufacture of halon was banned due to enviromental issues, I might add that halon was mainly used in fridges and not fire extinguishers, and there were some rumours circulating at the time that it was the manufacturer of halon that actually had it banned as they had developed an enviromentally friendly refigeration gas that did not extinguish fires.
At the time AFFF was the only alternative that was suitable for a plumbed in system. AFFF is a good fire fighting agent when deployed properly. The biggest problem in a race car situation is that for it to be effective it has to get to the base of the fire. This is where gas and powder are more superior as they can fill an area with extinguihsant and snuff the fire out.
Recently halon alternatives have become avaliable and are now approved by the MSA and FIA. However the gas currently used is very expensive when compared to AFFF, although a lot more effective. We currently have a four FIA/MSA approved gas systems under the brand name of ZERO 360.

With regard to the issue of hand held extinguisher I have been lobbying the MSA for over 12 months to allow the use of a particular type of powder called MONEX. In the trials we have conducted it is better than Halon and would be only slightly more expensive than AFFF. Although it does not offer the same cooling properties as AFFF the fire knockdown and fire out capabilities are superb. To give an example in a standard hand held tray test we can just extinguish it with 2.4Lt AFFF but can extinguish the same fire with only 400g of Monex from a 2.0kg unit. We are also trying to develop a plumbed in system using the same medium for engine fires.

Servicing as quite correctly stated above is as per the manufactureres requirements. This has however come from the FIA regulations which require systems to be serviced every two years. In the case of Lifeline systems it is every two years, some others require servicing every year.

I hope this has answererd a few of the questions and please feel free to PM me if you need any more info. As a keen club competitor myself I understand the feeling that all of these regulations are made up just to make us spend more money. This is not really the case, most of these regulations come from the FIA, the MSA do thier best to protect UK club competitors from a lot of these regulations and expenditure, but they are fighting a loosing battle. If some of the proposal on safety regulations that I have seen over the years had been implemented then we would all have taken up another pursuit a long time ago.

[Sheila M]

I have read this thread with great interest and I'm impressed at the depth of knowledge shown, especially by Simon and lifeline-fire. I was particularly interested to note lifeline-fire's comments about lobbying the MSA to allow the use of MONEX. I seem to recall that MONEX was used by us marshals a few years ago but it's use stopped when it became too cost prohibitive (i.e. too expensive fo us to chuck around), which is why we now use ABC powder.

As a matter of interest, if any of you remember the Shane Bland incident at Donington a couple of years back, would you be at all surprised to learn that that huge blaze was tackled entirely with ABC Powder? Foam was used only as a coolant on the leaking fuel tank.

[Stephen Green]

As was the huge fire at the Rallycross GP at Brands some years ago (I know as I was one of the guys who helped put the bugger out)

[Sheila M]

Oooh - another thing about MONEX - whatever you do DON'T swallow it - it has extreme laxative properties.

[lifeline-fire]

Sheila M

I did not know that about Monex, but did you know that ABC powder is a very good fertilizer for the garden.
On the issue of the cost of Monex it is roughly three to four times more expensive per KG than ABC powder.
I dont think it will be that long before the MSA allow the use of powder as an alternative to foam in hand held form. One of thier concerns was that powder can compact under vibration. In an effort to prove them wrong we have had a Monex hand held in a works WRC test car or the past twelve months and demonstrated to them that this was not the case. The FIA approve the use of powder in hand held form so you could for example do an FIA sanctioned event one week with a powder hand held and then turn up for a national event the following and fail scrutineering for having the wrong type of extinguisher.....a little strange I think.
`

[Tim Falce]

The biggest problem with the Zero 2000 system is getting them serviced and refilled. It's a very slow turnaround and very expensive by the time you pay the service charge and two lots of postage at about £20 each way and you can't get them done at your local friendly fire extinguisher company

[lifeline-fire]

Dear Falcemob

I am sorry if you feel the service we gave you was slow and expensive. With regard to the carriage issue we are under more and more pressure from carriers because of the vary nature of the product being pressurised means it is classed as hazzardous goods.
I can forsee in the future that we wil not even be able to move fire extinguishers using a normal carrier and will have to use specialist hazzardous goods carriers, and that does not bear thinking about cost wise.
Unfortunatly the turnaround of services and refills this time of year is not as quick as I would like. It is due purely to the volume of services we have in due to the start of the new season. On some days we can see around 50-60 units delivered for service or refill. This volume is 2-3 days work for one person. In the normal course of events we aim for a 48 hour turn around.
With regard to normal fire extinguisher agents doing the service work we have a major problem. Firstly the FIA now require all refillers to be certified by the manufacturer, this is then registered with the FIA. Secondly we have had some really bad experiences with unauthorised refilling and servicing. We have been called to account on more than one occassion whereby systems have been disguised to show they are operational by comercial fire extinguisher agents. The system has been required to deal with an incident and it has not worked. Of couse we are then the first port of call firstly by the user and then by the MSA steward.
Our servicing proceedure is not just a case of a quick look at the gauge weigh the cylinder and apply a new label, it is far more comprehesive and involves a total strip down of the extinguisher, pressure test of the cylinder, replacement of all of the seals, new extinguishant, re assembly and finally re pressurised and certified, again this is a requirement of the FIA.

[Stephen Green]

And well worth the effort too, it may be called upon to save your life!

[Tim Falce]

Lifeline-fire
I didn't say you were expensive, I think I paid about £40 last time, the problem is with the postage which more than doubles the cost. You have no local agents that can refill these so they have to be posted to you, I realise this isn't your problem but it all adds to the expense and as I said I wouldn't get an unauthorised dealer to refill it.
I will PM you regarding service as I don't want to go into details on here.
Regards
Tim

[Slippy Diff]

Originally Posted by falcemob

Lifeline-fire
I didn't say you were expensive, I think I paid about £40 last time, the problem is with the postage which more than doubles the cost. You have no local agents that can refill these so they have to be posted to you, I realise this isn't your problem but it all adds to the expense and as I said I wouldn't get an unauthorised dealer to refill it.
I will PM you regarding service as I don't want to go into details on here.
Regards
Tim

80 quid over 2 years added to all the other costs associated with motor racing.............................

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Slippy Diff

80 quid over 2 years added to all the other costs associated with motor racing.............................

I normally find that people who say things like that have a bottomless pit of money or someone else is footing their bill.
I don't object to the cost of the refill, it's the other bits that add up.
By budgeting and saving £20 or £30 here and there I can afford to go racing, I earn a modest salary which is well below the UK average so I can't just throw money away, I have to be careful. But as far as the extinguisher goes, the postage is beyond all our control as lifeline-fire has pointed out.

[R59]

What's a salary? - this involves having full time paid employment, with paid holidays etc..

I wish I had one of those. I'll just carry on sponging of the British tax payer for my budget (if you can call it that!)

Rob.

[Slippy Diff]

Originally Posted by falcemob

I normally find that people who say things like that have a bottomless pit of money or someone else is footing their bill.
I don't object to the cost of the refill, it's the other bits that add up.
By budgeting and saving £20 or £30 here and there I can afford to go racing, I earn a modest salary which is well below the UK average so I can't just throw money away, I have to be careful. But as far as the extinguisher goes, the postage is beyond all our control as lifeline-fire has pointed out.

11p a day. I never had a bottomless pit of money and only earned a modest salary. Quit moaning over the cost of motorsport, it's expensive. Simple.

[Eric Falce]

Slippy Diff, dont you go upsetting my little nephew,11p a day may not seem much to you but when I deduct it from his pocket money he doesnt laugh,come to that,he doesnt laugh much anyway.

[nyssa7]

Had the opportunity to use my fire extinguisher at a track day at Goodwood yesterday. Turbo engine let go in a big way at about 100mph, first there was a bang, then I saw the flames from the back of the car. Warned my passenger to get the extinguisher ready and be ready to get out as we slowed

Put out the fire at the back - although the back bumper lost all its paint, one tailight was singed as was the boot spoiler. Then realised we had another fire under bonnet so dealt with that one

So we are standing by the side of the track feeling p*ss*d off and smug at the same time, then realised the underside of the car was still on fire and we have a tank full of race fuel aboard

Thankfully the marshalls arrived at that point as our extinguisher was on its last legs

Moral of the story:

a) ALWAYS wear the race suit and undies, even on track days no matter how much of a nob it makes you look

b) there is no such thing as a fire extinguisher which is too big

c) quit whinging about the cost of an extinguisher, mine saved a car which has at least £30k invested in!

[Eric Falce]

I know that my original question was about club racing but there seems to be another answer coming through and that is apart from the plumbed in system,carry a back up hand held unit as well.Am now in the process of adding a second unit to the car.
As far as the original question I am pleased to say that it raised more questions than answers,very pleased with that,dont feel such a dumb head now!