[Team] Red Bull: Unbullievable

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

I'm no fan of Christian Horner but thanks to this un-named lady he's had his name & all of the accusations/speculations aired very publicly...

Spot on.
The whole narrative takes a very different angle if it's just "A senior Red Bull staff member and a female PA" story.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by Greem

Think twice before blaming the apparent victim here, folks.

The victim?
I think you may mean the accuser.
Guilty parties have yet to be established, unless you are counting the court of public opinion.

[Mike Harte]

As the BBC article that I linked a day or so ago, it would seem that the the female concerned has already "registered to go" to an employment tribunal. What that means I am not sure, and whether she has actually lodged a formal complaint with the Tribunal Service.

Whoever her "friend" is, is sure that Horner will try to have any legal process held in camera, however I do not think that he would have the prerogative to demand that as a potential defendant in the proceedings.

I just feel that someone else is driving this for purposes other than the alleged "behaviour".

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Skam85

The victim?
I think you may mean the accuser.
Guilty parties have yet to be established, unless you are counting the court of public opinion.

To be fair, he said "apparent victim" and honestly I think the general social definition of "victim blaming" is to turn around and attack whoever is making accusations "as a victim". And frankly that is happening quite a bit. It's not quite so overt in this forum, but you look at this topic in other motorsports forum and it is quite scarily misogynistic and with lots of boys will be boys attitudes! In short, as much as there are people quick to cast Horner as the villain there are many doing the same for the complainant.

Not related to your post I quoted above, but a general observation by me is that I see a current line of logic being used in social media that...

NDA has been signed therefore nobody signs an NDA unless they are compensated therefore this is all just a money grab therefore the complainant is the villain therefore Horner is innocent.

I get that logic, but as mentioned in recent posts above, there are other equally valid paths in which the complainant is not a villain.

Richard

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Richard C

nobody signs an NDA unless they are compensated

Richard

As I explained previously, this is a basic requirement for a legal agreement under common law jurisdictions. It may not be money but it does have to have some value.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

As the BBC article that I linked a day or so ago, it would seem that the the female concerned has already "registered to go" to an employment tribunal. What that means I am not sure, and whether she has actually lodged a formal complaint with the Tribunal Service.

Whoever her "friend" is, is sure that Horner will try to have any legal process held in camera, however I do not think that he would have the prerogative to demand that as a potential defendant in the proceedings.

I just feel that someone else is driving this for purposes other than the alleged "behaviour".

I think you may be right. It has been suggested there is a power struggle going on at Red Bull.

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/a...-teams-future/

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

As the BBC article that I linked a day or so ago, it would seem that the the female concerned has already "registered to go" to an employment tribunal. What that means I am not sure, and whether she has actually lodged a formal complaint with the Tribunal Service.

You can read the rules here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/...chedule/1/made

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Whoever her "friend" is, is sure that Horner will try to have any legal process held in camera, however I do not think that he would have the prerogative to demand that as a potential defendant in the proceedings.

Since she is employed in the UK she will come under the foregoing rules (they do mention other EU countries). It seems that, before a tribunal can be constituted there must have been some attempt, via alternative dispute resolution (ADR), to settle. So, unless they consider the production of the NDA as an attempt to settle (I wouldn't think it acceptable as such) then there must have been another process such as mediation, which will be documented and would be presented to the tribunal as evidence of ADR.

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I just feel that someone else is driving this for purposes other than the alleged "behaviour".

Yes, it does appear that way.

As an aside I thought all employment tribunals were confidential until the results were declared.

[GTRMagic]

New VCARB chassis for Mr Ricciardo in China

Let’s see if there is a difference..

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

New VCARB chassis for Mr Ricciardo in China

Let’s see if there is a difference..

I can't remember which team/driver this type of thing happened with in recent past. I remember that someone was complaining about weird issues and the team swapped out a new chassis to try to track down if it was a chassis issue. I would think that today that things like hidden cracks, etc. that effect handling are unlikely to escape modern inspection. That between things like ultrasonic examination of carbon layers and ability to test chassis on rigs to see if there is any unexpected flex or stiffness is not up to specification. And I know sometimes even if a driver has access to more than one "equal" chassis that a driver may prefer one over another with the implication that they "feel" the performance may better in one vs the other. How much of that is real vs. a favorite chassis is superstition (i.e."lucky underwear") I don't know. I expect you can find examples of both being true.

What I think is interesting is that RB said they had an extra chassis in the works. That this was not being built just for Ricciardo. How many chassis might a team expect to create for a season? Two minimum of course, three for a single spare, four if you want two spares, more if you are introducing revisions (such as weight reduction). My point is... Is RB in the same boat at Williams in that they are racing with just two chassis? If they had a spare today and it was viewed as equal quality why not just swap Ricciardo over into the spare now vs. waiting for a new chassis in China?

It also seems they are fully giving him the benefit of the doubt here. If he still underperforms against Yuki in a new chassis, maybe he will have nowhere else to hide?

Richard

[Mike Harte]

Maybe it's just a matter of time, Richard; this gives them another fortnight to make sure it's as perfect as possible. And, assuming they did actually have a spare with them, possibly they didn't want to use to as a swap, just in case they actually need it after a major prang.

Also, just to give their travelling crew a little breathing space; it's been pretty hectic over the last few weeks for them all.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Richard C

I can't remember which team/driver this type of thing happened with in recent past. I remember that someone was complaining about weird issues and the team swapped out a new chassis to try to track down if it was a chassis issue. And I know sometimes even if a driver has access to more than one "equal" chassis that a driver may prefer one over another with the implication that they "feel" the performance may better in one vs the other. How much of that is real vs. a favorite chassis is superstition (i.e."lucky underwear") I don't know. I expect you can find examples of both being true.

Like you I can't recall which driver / team said similar things most recently (Have a feeling it was Lewis but not 100%) but it's not unusual and as you say, sometimes a driver just prefers the intangible feel of one chassis over another. Ultimately the chassis are hand made & subtle, immeasurable differences can occur & give a driver better or worse feel & confidence, even though both chassis have the same torsional rigidity etc.

Originally Posted by Richard C

What I think is interesting is that RB said they had an extra chassis in the works. That this was not being built just for Ricciardo. How many chassis might a team expect to create for a season? Two minimum of course, three for a single spare, four if you want two spares, more if you are introducing revisions (such as weight reduction). My point is... Is RB in the same boat at Williams in that they are racing with just two chassis? If they had a spare today and it was viewed as equal quality why not just swap Ricciardo over into the spare now vs. waiting for a new chassis in China?

Possible that Williams isn't the only team in pit lane right now that is racing with only two chassis - hard to tell from RB's statement. Typically, teams do build multiple chassis through the course of the year - used to be around the 6-9 mark, as newer, ever-so-slighlty-stiffer chassis tend to be a little quicker, or smoothed production saves a little bit of weight, or there are subtle changes to the design to work better. How many they build in this cost-cap era I don't know.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Richard C

My point is... Is RB in the same boat at Williams in that they are racing with just two chassis? If they had a spare today and it was viewed as equal quality why not just swap Ricciardo over into the spare now vs. waiting for a new chassis in China?

Richard

I recall reading at the Australian GP when the Albon chassis thing came up that two other (unamed at the time) teams were mentioned as known not to have a spare chassis in their inventory. Alpine have subsequently confirmed they do not have the luxury of a spare chassis atm.
I was wondering who the third might be and felt that it was less likely to be Haas without a spare, given they do not manufacture theirs in house AFAIK, buying in the finished item from Dallara.... thus thinking they would likely have a spare as it would not impact factory (as opposed to financial) resources and be a matter of ordering in pre season with their original two.
Reading now that RB/VCARB would appear to not have one at hand to effect a Ricciardo chassis swap until China implies to me they would be the third one referenced.

[Tourer]

Just watching FP3 & Kravitz has advised that RB already has 3 chassis & that the new chassis for DanRic is a 4th chassis.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Richard C

I can't remember which team/driver this type of thing happened with in recent past. I remember that someone was complaining about weird issues and the team swapped out a new chassis to try to track down if it was a chassis issue. I would think that today that things like hidden cracks, etc. that effect handling are unlikely to escape modern inspection. That between things like ultrasonic examination of carbon layers and ability to test chassis on rigs to see if there is any unexpected flex or stiffness is not up to specification. And I know sometimes even if a driver has access to more than one "equal" chassis that a driver may prefer one over another with the implication that they "feel" the performance may better in one vs the other. How much of that is real vs. a favorite chassis is superstition (i.e."lucky underwear") I don't know. I expect you can find examples of both being true.

What I think is interesting is that RB said they had an extra chassis in the works. That this was not being built just for Ricciardo. How many chassis might a team expect to create for a season? Two minimum of course, three for a single spare, four if you want two spares, more if you are introducing revisions (such as weight reduction). My point is... Is RB in the same boat at Williams in that they are racing with just two chassis? If they had a spare today and it was viewed as equal quality why not just swap Ricciardo over into the spare now vs. waiting for a new chassis in China?

It also seems they are fully giving him the benefit of the doubt here. If he still underperforms against Yuki in a new chassis, maybe he will have nowhere else to hide?

Richard

No they already have three.

[thetool]

Newey going. Rome falls?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/articles/cmm3v9ny78eo

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by thetool

Newey going. Rome falls?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/articles/cmm3v9ny78eo

Or it could well be a shot across the bows of those who seem determined to get rid of Horner. I would imagine that those members of the team that are in Horner's corner are constantly watching their backs and wondering what else might emerge from those who appear to support the opposition.

I don't imagine that those who were behind all of this imagined for one moment that all this could end up in them potentially losing their main design and engineering asset. And for all his success in the last few years, who is to say how successful Verstappen might be in a car that doesn't come from the pen of Newey?

[Richard C]

Interesting. Sourced from AMuS and some level of BBC confirmation. So potentially true. I guess we wait for confirmation. It seems where Sainz goes seems to be stuck. I wonder if there were ongoing rumblings and more dominos needed to fall.

It does allow for crazy speculation. Newey and Max to AM. Lance out and superteam of Max and Alonso! Sainz to Red Bull to partner with Perez. See its fun to play this game.

Richard

[flatlandsman]

It would not shock me at all if he ends up somewhere like Audi or Andretti.

I doubt Andretti would afford him, but Audi potentially could and he would no doubt be interested though maybe not with working abroad which also counts out Ferrari, plus the awfulness with which they run teams in the last 15 or so years.

Teams like Ferrari and Aston will just be offering open cheque book approaches, as would merc no doubt, but i think Newey is more transparent than that, he seems to desire more than just work, he is perhaps one of the most competitive men in the sport, and his demands are met every time,

Any team will court him, but I think a huge change might appeal, depends how much he wants to move away or stay where he is, I would think the awfulness of Ferrari would frustrate him.

I seriously could see him at Andretti, just to do something really different and design a car for a smaller team, but it depends how much money and being a winner matters to him these days, a fair bit I expect, which probably suggests Audi, I hope so anyway.

[crmalcolm]

In the past, Newey has referred to regret of not joining Ferrari as:

“Emotionally, I guess, to a point. Yes. But just as, for instance, working with Fernando and Lewis would have been fabulous. But it never happened. It’s just circumstance sometimes, that’s the way it is.”

Now he has the chance to work with Lewis and Ferrari at the same time...........

[Greem]

Where's William Storey in all this? Surely he's out there somewhere confecting some tale or other on how this reflects well on his marketing strategy...

j/k

[Richard C]

More motorsports sites are reporting Newey is out. And nobody knows where he is going. I was only half joking about an AM move. But Stroll Sr. apparently has been courting him. Newey's has said he regrets not working for Ferrari, but I think him going to Ferrari is unlikely. I think he would need to move to Italy to make that a successful and I can imagine he has little desire to uproot and replant himself at this point in his life. A move to Andretti would be interesting, but frankly... Andretti is mostly a pipedream at this point. I am sure Audi would want him, but frankly I just don't have much faith in Audi being successful in F1 within the next 5+ years. Audi just seems risky to me. Probably someone like Sainz is thinking the same regarding Audi. They may pay him a bunch of money, but he may be #1 driver in a mid-field team for many years. There is the potential Newey just walks away from F1.

Originally Posted by Greem

Where's William Storey in all this? Surely he's out there somewhere confecting some tale or other on how this reflects well on his marketing strategy...

j/k

He seems to be somewhat laying low these days. Or maybe just not talking about F1 as much. He seems to be spending his time trying (and failing) to buy a football club and ranting about Covid and UK/EU politics on Twitter.

Richard

[Richard C]

Regarding Newey and Andretti...

(stolen from Reddit)



Richard

[chillibowl]

Thought this bit from the above bbc link was interesting:

‘Newey’s contract with Red Bull lasts until the end of 2025 but he is said to believe he can negotiate an exit that allows him to work with another team from next season.’

So no gardening? If I’m reading that right why would RB allow this? Crazy!

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Thought this bit from the above bbc link was interesting:

‘Newey’s contract with Red Bull lasts until the end of 2025 but he is said to believe he can negotiate an exit that allows him to work with another team from next season.’

So no gardening? If I’m reading that right why would RB allow this? Crazy!

He has been in a position to dictate the terms on his contract since he joined the team originally.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Alan52

He has been in a position to dictate the terms on his contract since he joined the team originally.

That is what I was thinking as well. When you are in high demand, you can name your terms.

Richard