[Official] Brazilian Grand Prix 2022: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 21 of 22

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Max/Lewis: Well it was 80/20 on Max until he admitted he knew it was about to be an accident. There's a difference between an accident and driving into other cars.

Lando/Leclerc: Would've called it 50/50 but Lando mounted the kerb which pushed him wide into Leclerc.

Danny/KMag: Normally Dannys inability to drive modern cars only affects Danny. This time he managed to ruin the feel good story of the weekend through an accident that people would've called for another driver (let's say, Stroll) to have their license removed. Dannys F1 career can't end soon enough.

Also enjoyed the amount of team mate melt downs this week. One AMR driver driving the other off the road. One Alpine driver driving into the back of another, and then having the audacity to claim they moved. A Ferrari driver wanting something. A RBR Driver being a prized prick.

Looking forward to Fernando in an Aston next year. He drives into things. His team mate aggressively blocks things. It's gonna be great.

My sentiments as well. I agree on the collisions, but I tend to think Daniel just made a mistake and it is less about his current issues. But the mistake couldn't have come at a worst time for him. I do agree that his F1 time is up. I also am excited about Fernando at Aston. I would love to see Fernando in a top car. I think in the right car he could still be WDC today. While that opportunity is unlikely to happen, it seems Aston is performing better than Alpine at the moment. So maybe we might see him up at the front more often.

As to the entire Max/Perez drama. I have generally been ambivalent towards Max. I have generally supported RBR as I am primarily a Honda fan (and Porsche fan but that is not relevant here). I also tend to cheer for the underdogs. So I am not anti-Mercedes, but I have looked forward to someone toppling them. So from that perspective I have generally cheered RBR and Max along for the past handful of few seasons.

But given this past weekend, I am much less ambivalent with respect to Max. Regardless of his reasons, it was a jerk move. The team asks Perez to let Max through, Max should have reciprocated when he wasn't able to get the job done in a reasonable time.

After the initial shock and disgust, my next thought was Vettel and his multi-21 situation. Vettel in his prime was a bit of a jerk as well. But he seems to matured/mellowed, comes across as a different and more likeable guy these days. So he is now someone we generally love and will miss from F1. I wonder if Max is able to recover in a similar way and how long it might take? At the moments, I have my doubts as I am not sure if this is a "maturity" or "perspective" issue or he is just wired the way he is and is unlikely to substantially change.

As I think others have pointed out Fernando is a bit the same way. These drivers can be mixed bags and swing from one extreme to the other at times.

Richard

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

My sentiments as well. I agree on the collisions, but I tend to think Daniel just made a mistake and it is less about his current issues. But the mistake couldn't have come at a worst time for him. I do agree that his F1 time is up. I also am excited about Fernando at Aston. I would love to see Fernando in a top car. I think in the right car he could still be WDC today. While that opportunity is unlikely to happen, it seems Aston is performing better than Alpine at the moment. So maybe we might see him up at the front more often.

As to the entire Max/Perez drama. I have generally been ambivalent towards Max. I have generally supported RBR as I am primarily a Honda fan (and Porsche fan but that is not relevant here). I also tend to cheer for the underdogs. So I am not anti-Mercedes, but I have looked forward to someone toppling them. So from that perspective I have generally cheered RBR and Max along for the past handful of few seasons.

But given this past weekend, I am much less ambivalent with respect to Max. Regardless of his reasons, it was a jerk move. The team asks Perez to let Max through, Max should have reciprocated when he wasn't able to get the job done in a reasonable time.

After the initial shock and disgust, my next thought was Vettel and his multi-21 situation. Vettel in his prime was a bit of a jerk as well. But he seems to matured/mellowed, comes across as a different and more likeable guy these days. So he is now someone we generally love and will miss from F1. I wonder if Max is able to recover in a similar way and how long it might take? At the moments, I have my doubts as I am not sure if this is a "maturity" or "perspective" issue or he is just wired the way he is and is unlikely to substantially change.

As I think others have pointed out Fernando is a bit the same way. These drivers can be mixed bags and swing from one extreme to the other at times.

Richard

Love this post.

Regarding Seb vs Webber for Multi-21, there's more to it than that though. Silverstone 2 years before, Webber ignored team orders (4 or 5 times) not to attack Seb. Webbers response to questioning was that Team orders are not ok, and he is never going to obey them. Seb also said he was not fussed by Mark ignoring team orders.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/ma...47448/4447448/

Fast forward two years and roles are reversed. Unlike Mark, Seb gets the job done and makes the pass. Mark loses his sh*t and demands to know why Seb isn't obeying team orders.

To me, that was just Mark and Seb playing by the same rules - but only Seb had the ability to pull if off. With Max and Perez, Max has literally nothing to gain by screwing Perez.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Love this post.

Regarding Seb vs Webber for Multi-21, there's more to it than that though. Silverstone 2 years before, Webber ignored team orders (4 or 5 times) not to attack Seb. Webbers response to questioning was that Team orders are not ok, and he is never going to obey them. Seb also said he was not fussed by Mark ignoring team orders.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/ma...47448/4447448/

Fast forward two years and roles are reversed. Unlike Mark, Seb gets the job done and makes the pass. Mark loses his sh*t and demands to know why Seb isn't obeying team orders.

To me, that was just Mark and Seb playing by the same rules - but only Seb had the ability to pull if off. With Max and Perez, Max has literally nothing to gain by screwing Perez.

Not sure if you love it because you agree with me or that I over simplified things, you don't agree with me, and think the post is overly bad.

I hear you in that it's more complex than just "multi-21". Regardless of the full backstory and "the truth", Seb was generally ridiculed in various ways by those who didn't like him. Fan perception became his reality. Unflattering labels such as "finger boy" or "multi-21" were used for a long time. He has seemed to overcome those. Can Max do the same? I question if he is able or cares to do so?

Richard

[Akrapovic]

Love it because I agree with you.

I also think it's about time F1 stripped the lap times of anyone causing a red flag or yellow section in qualifying. IndyCar started doing that years ago. And it'd solve this problem so well.

[crmalcolm]

Just for balance - having been critical of Red Bull. The team members are still respectful of a rival's performance:

https://www.facebook.com/reel/527419795492461?s=ifu

[S griffin]

I was happy for Russell’s win, not just for him, but I thought it would be nice to have a weekend where the focus isn’t on Red Bull. Yet it seems they can’t escape the spotlight…

[BTCC frog]

Lewis Hamilton and Max Verstappen's rivalry is really getting quite heated, after their latest incident. It really seems to me as though Verstappen is really willing to crash in order to beat Hamilton, and Hamilton has now realised that he has to dish it out back to Verstappen if he wants to stop Verstappen walking all over him. The crash in Brazil was possibly deliberate by both drivers. It has shades of Senna and Prost all over it and I fear that, if they are involved in a championship battle next year as appears very possible, it could result in multiple incidents, more even than in 2021.

I wrote this article about it the psychology of dirty driving and incidents in Formula 1 and would be interested to know if people agree with me, because obviously I am no racing driver, so am just speculating and the entire thing might be total nonsense: https://f1frogblog.wordpress.com/202...-motor-racing/

[Akrapovic]

The crash in Brazil is only deliberate by Max Verstappen. Lewis was turning into a corner he was entitled to turn into. Max was trying to make a corner by bullying Lewis out of the way. Only one of these can be considered a deliberate accident.

[AndreasDavour]

I have said it before in other threads, and will say it again. Moral leadership comes from the top. Max isn't going to learn from that stinking pile.

[AndreasDavour]

What surprised me most by this race was how much I enjoyed it, even though it was probably the worst race in a long time for my team. Sadly I think both Daniel and Lando messed up and should not have been in that place either of them.

[Skam85]

Besides Max, I can't think of anyone that's been driving better than Alonso this year. Maybe Russell. Seb's going out on a high too.

[TrapezeArtist]

I hate team orders. I’ve always hated team orders. But I can’t deny they are a reality.

So here we have Verstappen passing Perez (with Checo’s assistance?) and going after Perez. Normally maximising team points would be the priority from the team perspective so pass/try/drop-back-if-it-fails seems to make sense. However RBR have already won the Constructors and now they want the Drivers one-two. So why didn’t they prioritise Perez right through.

Given all the sacrifices Perez has made for Verstappen in 21 and 22, a simple one place swap-around seems a small concession to make. It would also have earned a brownie point with the team management (though Horner is so devoted to brown-nosing Verstappen that I hardly think he will lose much there). The lack of a helping hand AND the arrogant response on radio and in interviews is going to cost him far more in 2023.

There was, of course, another driver asking for team orders to help his championship too. Leclerc’s polite requests were turned down on the grounds of being “too risky”. I presume that refers to the 4 second gap from Sainz to Leclerc and the sub-1 second gap behind, and Ferrari being afraid that slowing by that much could cause Sainz to be passed by Alonso as well. And after a whole Grand Prix without any strategic whoopsies I imagine they were afraid of blundering into a mistake at the end.

[Born Racer]

I imagine they were concerned about Alonso. Having said fha, Ferrari have generally been averse to team orders this season (remember Silverstone?). I'm struggling to recall any from them this year. Can anyone enlighten me?

I'm wondering to what extent Red Bull actually informed Verstappen he would have to give the place back before be made the move. It may well be that they didn't and assumed he would.

[Skam85]

Hard to prioritise Perez when he isn't as fast as Max and Max refuses to co-operate though

[Beau2]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

The crash in Brazil is only deliberate by Max Verstappen. Lewis was turning into a corner he was entitled to turn into. Max was trying to make a corner by bullying Lewis out of the way. Only one of these can be considered a deliberate accident.

I respectfully disagree.

We've seen many times in the past that Hamilton is willing to risk an accident with some drivers more than others. He does deliberately leave less space for some drivers or is more aggressive with his defence. There is a reason that Hamilton has been like a magnet to drivers like Massa, Rosberg, Alonso and now Verstappen.

Hamilton's driving is inconsistent in the sense that he clearly races differently with some drivers compared with others and this often results in more accidents, some of which are his fault and some of which are not..

It takes two to tango and Hamilton is not completely blameless. If that was Leclerc coming around the outside I can guarantee that Hamilton would have given more space going into turn 2.

I also find it utterly bizarre that people regard the Norris/Leclerc incident as 50/50. That was far more clear cut Norris fault compared with Verstappen on Hamilton.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by Beau2

I respectfully disagree.

We've seen many times in the past that Hamilton is willing to risk an accident with some drivers more than others. He does deliberately leave less space for some drivers or is more aggressive with his defence. There is a reason that Hamilton has been like a magnet to drivers like Massa, Rosberg, Alonso and now Verstappen.

Hamilton's driving is inconsistent in the sense that he clearly races differently with some drivers compared with others and this often results in more accidents, some of which are his fault and some of which are not..

It takes two to tango and Hamilton is not completely blameless. If that was Leclerc coming around the outside I can guarantee that Hamilton would have given more space going into turn 2.

I also find it utterly bizarre that people regard the Norris/Leclerc incident as 50/50. That was far more clear cut Norris fault compared with Verstappen on Hamilton.

Could not agree with this more

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Regarding Seb vs Webber for Multi-21, there's more to it than that though.

Fast forward two years and roles are reversed. Unlike Mark, Seb gets the job done and makes the pass. Mark loses his sh*t and demands to know why Seb isn't obeying team orders.

To me, that was just Mark and Seb playing by the same rules - but only Seb had the ability to pull if off.

There's actually even more to it than that though. In the Multi-21 situation, both RB drivers had been told to turn their engines well down. Mark did, Seb didn't and used the extra power to pass Mark - that was why such a big deal was made of it at the time.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Beau2

I respectfully disagree.

We've seen many times in the past that Hamilton is willing to risk an accident with some drivers more than others. He does deliberately leave less space for some drivers or is more aggressive with his defence. There is a reason that Hamilton has been like a magnet to drivers like Massa, Rosberg, Alonso and now Verstappen.

Hamilton's driving is inconsistent in the sense that he clearly races differently with some drivers compared with others and this often results in more accidents, some of which are his fault and some of which are not..

It takes two to tango and Hamilton is not completely blameless. If that was Leclerc coming around the outside I can guarantee that Hamilton would have given more space going into turn 2.

I also find it utterly bizarre that people regard the Norris/Leclerc incident as 50/50. That was far more clear cut Norris fault compared with Verstappen on Hamilton.

Agree - as I said a number of posts back, these two need to work out how to race each other without crashing.

No question that Max was predominantly at fault in Brazil but that does not mean wholly at fault, Lewis had a part to play as well, just less so than Max.

The pair of them really should sort it out - but I'm not holding my breath.

[dsg]

Originally Posted by Tourer

The pair of them really should sort it out - but I'm not holding my breath.

I'm looking forward to it.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Beau2

I respectfully disagree.

We've seen many times in the past that Hamilton is willing to risk an accident with some drivers more than others. He does deliberately leave less space for some drivers or is more aggressive with his defence. There is a reason that Hamilton has been like a magnet to drivers like Massa, Rosberg, Alonso and now Verstappen.

Hamilton's driving is inconsistent in the sense that he clearly races differently with some drivers compared with others and this often results in more accidents, some of which are his fault and some of which are not..

It takes two to tango and Hamilton is not completely blameless. If that was Leclerc coming around the outside I can guarantee that Hamilton would have given more space going into turn 2.

I also find it utterly bizarre that people regard the Norris/Leclerc incident as 50/50. That was far more clear cut Norris fault compared with Verstappen on Hamilton.

You see, I disagree with you and I'm with Akrapovic. I see nothing wrong with a top driver 'adjusting' his driving style depending on who he is battling with when he knows that a particular rival will just barge through, going off the track to do it if he has to. I don't think Hamilton would have given anyone else more room there and I suspect that Leclerc would have been more circumspect anyway. As to Leclerc's move around Norris - that was always going to be risky and I would say somewhat impetuous. Of course we would all be hailing him as a genius had he come through unscathed....

[Peter Mallett]

I read on twitter that after their coming togather, K Mag was left standing by the track whilst Dani R got a lift in the medical car. The reason being that there was only one seat and Dani snaffled it. K Mag then had to walk through public areas to get back to the pits. It seems to me that the organisers are spending more time on looking for penalties than making sure drivers and personel are safe. Look at what happened in Suzuka with the safety car.

FWIW I don't think either driver should have been penalised since it was simply a consequence of racing.

As for Lando and ILeclerc just another racing incident why issue a penalty?

The Ham/Ver coming together was due to the following left hander Ver opened his steering wheel rather than lift off. Both drvers knew what was coming up and either could have backed out, niether did so another case of "that's racing".

[Aysedasi]

I don't disagree Peter. But as we've remarked more and more often over the last few years, every contact has to be investigated and if there is fault, someone has to be penalised. The 'just a racing incident' concept has been almost completely lost.

[Peter Mallett]

Agreed, I think the point is that they look for penalties rather than manage the issue hence a driver having to walk back via public areas.

[Beau2]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

You see, I disagree with you and I'm with Akrapovic. I see nothing wrong with a top driver 'adjusting' his driving style depending on who he is battling with when he knows that a particular rival will just barge through, going off the track to do it if he has to. I don't think Hamilton would have given anyone else more room there and I suspect that Leclerc would have been more circumspect anyway. As to Leclerc's move around Norris - that was always going to be risky and I would say somewhat impetuous. Of course we would all be hailing him as a genius had he come through unscathed....

There is nothing wrong with adjusting driving style depending on the driver they are racing. However, if they adjust said driving style and then an accident occurs then the adjuster has to take some of the blame.
It's really no different at all to Verstappen saying he committed to the move because he knew no space was going to be left - Hamilton in the same sense has deliberately raced harder/left no space knowing that certain drivers will go for it. Both are very deliberate actions that have meant both parties could do more to avoid an accident.

It's very similar to Silverstone last year when Lewis effectively went for it a bit too much because he knew Verstappen was going to defend hard. Ironically, in that instance Lewis was left a fair amount of space but didn't back out. People tried to excuse Hamilton by saying "Well Hamilton can't put up with Verstappen being aggressive at other races" - that's absolutely fine but it still means Lewis is deliberately changing his style and is at least partially to blame when these incidents occur.

As for Leclerc...you say he would have been more circumspect when referring to one incident but that he was impetuous when referring to another. Sorry, but isn't that a total contradiction?

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Beau2

There is nothing wrong with adjusting driving style depending on the driver they are racing. However, if they adjust said driving style and then an accident occurs then the adjuster has to take some of the blame.

No, I don't think so necessarily, if the overtaker is of the 'let me through or we crash' mentality...

Originally Posted by Beau2

As for Leclerc...you say he would have been more circumspect when referring to one incident but that he was impetuous when referring to another. Sorry, but isn't that a total contradiction?

Again, no, I don't think so. Leclerc has a penchant for the buffalo gals overtake, having made it stick a few times, so perhaps he's more inclined to take that risk assuming that it's going to be successful.

I don't know really. We could debate this endlessly, I guess!