[Official] Brazilian Grand Prix 2022: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 21 of 22

[BTCC frog]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

No, I don't think so necessarily, if the overtaker is of the 'let me through or we crash' mentality...

I think this is true. On many occasions last year, Verstappen put Hamilton in 'back off or we crash' situations and every time Hamilton backed off. Hamilton turned the tables in Monza, putting Verstappen in that situation, and Verstappen chose to crash.

Verstappen put Hamilton in one of those situations again in Brazil, but Hamilton has had enough and realised that he needs to choose to crash in those situations otherwise Verstappen will just keep doing it to him. Verstappen has the psychological upper hand in their battles, and Hamilton is trying to eliminate that. It is a bit like Prost turning in on Senna in Suzuka 1989. I actually think Senna's move was probably okay on that occasion, but Prost did it because Senna had pulled more aggressive moves in the past.

As for Leclerc, I think he is more like Nigel Mansell, and pulls off these risky overtakes just thinking that he can do it, rather than because he is trying to pressure the other driver into backing off. It makes Leclerc by far the most entertaining driver to watch on the grid right now, but is also why he isn't yet as complete a driver as Hamilton or Verstappen.

[Beau2]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

No, I don't think so necessarily, if the overtaker is of the 'let me through or we crash' mentality...

I think we'll agree to disagree on this one.

To me, Hamilton's defence was clearly "I'll leave you no space" on a genuine overtaking maneuver so we crash. He takes some of the responsibility in that regard. I've seen a lot of comparison to the Ocon Vs. Verstappen incident in 2018 - and they are very similar. On both occasions the attacking driver could have backed out but the defending driver could have also done more/given more space and taken less risks that their own race.

Who was it a few laps later that was given space and the move was pulled off perfectly? Stroll and someone? That's how it should be done when you have two drivers that race each other respectfully (maybe a rarity for Stroll )

Again, no, I don't think so. Leclerc has a penchant for the buffalo gals overtake, having made it stick a few times, so perhaps he's more inclined to take that risk assuming that it's going to be successful.

I don't know really. We could debate this endlessly, I guess!

It was tongue in cheek by me slightly. We could endlessly debate it but that would be boring. I just find it hard to blame Leclerc that much for his incident.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Beau2

I think we'll agree to disagree on this one.

To me, Hamilton's defence was clearly "I'll leave you no space" on a genuine overtaking maneuver so we crash. He takes some of the responsibility in that regard. I've seen a lot of comparison to the Ocon Vs. Verstappen incident in 2018 - and they are very similar. On both occasions the attacking driver could have backed out but the defending driver could have also done more/given more space and taken less risks that their own race.

Who was it a few laps later that was given space and the move was pulled off perfectly? Stroll and someone? That's how it should be done when you have two drivers that race each other respectfully (maybe a rarity for Stroll )



It was tongue in cheek by me slightly. We could endlessly debate it but that would be boring. I just find it hard to blame Leclerc that much for his incident.

I'm happy to disagree but with good grace... I saw little fault lying with Hamilton for the incident. You can roll over just so many times before you've just had enough. Verstappen knew exactly what was going to happen but pushed through over the kerbs anyway. Perhaps Christian can remind him that the car slows down if you lift off the throttle or touch the brakes....

I'm not sure I'm 'blaming' Leclerc as such, he's an exciting racer and goes for it. I personally saw it as a 'risk taken, risk didn't pay off' racing incident. We had a lot of debate on here a few months back about the guy on the inside leaving room for the guy on the outside, and some of that I took issue with.

But yes, it's all just debate and we do see things a little differently on occasion...

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Perhaps Christian can remind him that the car slows down if you lift off the throttle or touch the brakes....

But then Jos would complain that Red Bull are not telling him the right techniques to drive the car. He'd be disappointed, I'm sure.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Beau2

To me, Hamilton's defence was clearly "I'll leave you no space" on a genuine overtaking maneuver so we crash.

On this occasion - I think the space to be left was at T1. The move was not completed, and it was time for Ver to back out before the T2 apex.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Skam85

Besides Max, I can't think of anyone that's been driving better than Alonso this year. Maybe Russell. Seb's going out on a high too.

Lando and Bottas at the very least. Fernando isn't even outscoring his own team mate yet.

Fernando seems to get a bit of the Danny affect, where he can be bang average and everyone gives him credit for being awesome.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Lando and Bottas at the very least. Fernando isn't even outscoring his own team mate yet.

Fernando seems to get a bit of the Danny affect, where he can be bang average and everyone gives him credit for being awesome.

Personally I think Fernando has been on a completely different level to Daniel this season. The latter has been embarrassing for most of it.

[Akrapovic]

Honestly I think the only people on Daniels level are the Ferrari pit wall. But I stand by my point - everyone says how great Fernando is doing. Yet he's being outscored by Ocon, has once again fallen out with yet another team, and is getting credit for it.

[PhilipR]

I find Alonso intriguing - he seems to be very good at self promotion - there is this aura of him doing great amazing things but being let down by outside factors. I guess not being at the front end makes it easier to do this as you can hid behind car performance

I also believe his Ferrari cars (except 2014) were not as bad as he claims - they were still great cars even if not on level of Red Bull at the time - but there seems to be a narrative of him dragging a Williams 2019 level car to the world championship fight

One thing I have noticed about Alonso is as soon as he leaves a team , they get better - Mcclaren after 2018, Ferrari after 2014 - makes me wonder what kind of influence he has in a team and how good is he at developing a team/car.

Do not get me wrong he is a phenomenal talent and one of the best ever in F1 but I think a lot about him is exaggerated and difficult to prove otherwise as he has not really mattered at the front end in 10 years now

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Honestly I think the only people on Daniels level are the Ferrari pit wall. But I stand by my point - everyone says how great Fernando is doing. Yet he's being outscored by Ocon, has once again fallen out with yet another team, and is getting credit for it.

As to Fernando. I think its right to point out things like Ocon being ahead of him on points as at the end of the day that is what matters. My "pro Fernando" comment would be that it seems that he is able to provide exciting on track action and (at least to me) seems (personal feeling) to be "in the mix" more than Ocon. Maybe if he is able to convert that to points, then things will be different. I don't really follow him much. So I can't comment one way or another so to why Fernando is not ahead of Ocon if he is so good.

Richard

[Aysedasi]

Interesting isn't it? Fernando is one of those F1 'characters' while his teammate is young and, well, fairly average, I'd say. So I suppose Alonso should be giving him a hiding week in, week out. That it doesn't often happen says something, I guess. But I think that when he does hang up his helmet, F1 will be all the poorer for that (as it will be with Vettel at the end of this season).

[AndreasDavour]

Originally Posted by Beau2

I respectfully disagree.

...

I also find it utterly bizarre that people regard the Norris/Leclerc incident as 50/50. That was far more clear cut Norris fault compared with Verstappen on Hamilton.

Regardless the comparison, I totally agree. Norris was riding the kerb and bounced up and down, and clearly was not in control.

[AndreasDavour]

Originally Posted by PhilipR

I find Alonso intriguing - he seems to be very good at self promotion - there is this aura of him doing great amazing things but being let down by outside factors. I guess not being at the front end makes it easier to do this as you can hid behind car performance

I also believe his Ferrari cars (except 2014) were not as bad as he claims - they were still great cars even if not on level of Red Bull at the time - but there seems to be a narrative of him dragging a Williams 2019 level car to the world championship fight

One thing I have noticed about Alonso is as soon as he leaves a team , they get better - Mcclaren after 2018, Ferrari after 2014 - makes me wonder what kind of influence he has in a team and how good is he at developing a team/car.

Do not get me wrong he is a phenomenal talent and one of the best ever in F1 but I think a lot about him is exaggerated and difficult to prove otherwise as he has not really mattered at the front end in 10 years now

He is indeed great at self promotion. But, I consider him one of the best drivers on the grid. Maybe not the best F1 driver, but the best all round talent. He has impressed in Indycar and he has impressed in sportscars and also done quite well in rallying. The breadth of talent that takes is to me greater than some superstar of F1.



Is he sometimes over hyping himself? Sure, that's one reason he it great at so many kinds of racing, and some others are not. A lot is in the head.

[crmalcolm]

https://twitter.com/formulawill13/st...Sj4xP_lJw&s=09

https://twitter.com/FP1Will/status/1592467616052150272?t=1pvTD6w8Vctu2y1vAKM46w&s=09

[Beau2]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

https://twitter.com/formulawill13/st...Sj4xP_lJw&s=09

https://twitter.com/FP1Will/status/1...y1vAKM46w&s=09

Those clips show that Max was further ahead into turn 1 and more alongside into turn 2 yet was given less space at the apex of turn 2. George (I assume in clip 1) has less chance of an overtake yet was given more space at the apex of 2.

Even on the Ocon comparison, Max is further alongside much earlier in the corner using the track markings as a distance guide.

[Skam85]

Sorry but if you don't think Alonso is in as good a form as he has been in his career then maybe you haven't watched much F1 this year.

[Skam85]

The only person that can be ranked as low or lower than Danny Ricc this year is Latifi. But I feel for the guy, never going to be a WDC but was doing alright against Russell last year. Then AD happened, with the death threats and abuse from rabid feral fans and that really rattled him. Coupled with a car not to his liking and he was on a hiding to nothing.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Skam85

The only person that can be ranked as low or lower than Danny Ricc this year is Latifi. But I feel for the guy, never going to be a WDC but was doing alright against Russell last year. Then AD happened, with the death threats and abuse from rabid feral fans and that really rattled him. Coupled with a car not to his liking and he was on a hiding to nothing.

I think Stroll is down with Danny too.

Lance finally got to grips with the old car and became fine. Not great, but fine. Acceptable. But with the new cars he's struggled badly.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by Skam85

Sorry but if you don't think Alonso is in as good a form as he has been in his career then maybe you haven't watched much F1 this year.

That must be it. But at least we have you to watch for us and tell us what to think!

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Beau2

Those clips show that Max was further ahead into turn 1 and more alongside into turn 2 yet was given less space at the apex of turn 2. George (I assume in clip 1) has less chance of an overtake yet was given more space at the apex of 2.

Even on the Ocon comparison, Max is further alongside much earlier in the corner using the track markings as a distance guide.

All very well, but Max knew what was going to happen if Hamilton didn't move out of his way and made it happen anyway. Further debate is actually pretty pointless on this one.

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Honestly I think the only people on Daniels level are the Ferrari pit wall. But I stand by my point - everyone says how great Fernando is doing. Yet he's being outscored by Ocon, has once again fallen out with yet another team, and is getting credit for it.

I think we need that guy who does the statistical analysis to look at the relative performances of Alonso and Ocon. Alonso's superior pitstop strategy put him on fresh rubber at the end of this race, which was obviously the better choice compared with his teammate and caught the eye. Up until then there was not much between them.

For what it is worth, my own thoughts are that over the season there has usually been very little between the two of them. Without checking, my gut feel is that Alonso has had more mechanical breakdowns than Ocon. Ocon has the occasional "off" weekend, but perhaps there have been less of those this season compared with last .

I think Alonso has been driving well, without ever actually destroying his teammate. In the latter part of this season the Alpine car has often been best of the rest behind the 3 top teams.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I think Stroll is down with Danny too.

Lance finally got to grips with the old car and became fine. Not great, but fine. Acceptable. But with the new cars he's struggled badly.

I feel like he's made it out of Q1 a lot more than he used to this year. Seb on his retirement tour has smashed him though especially in the second half of the season as the car got better. Alonso I think will embarrass him in 2023

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

https://www.redbullracing.com/int-en...ontent=Article

Red Bull statement is that Max was only informed to give the position back in the final corner and that he didn't have to do it.

This doesn't fit with the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf7j...l=G-ForceGamer

The Red Bull statement - what a crock of horse @!*@ (self-censored )

"We had not envisaged the situation that unfolded on the last lap and we had not agreed a strategy for such a scenario before the race." - On the face of it - are you really telling me that Red Bull had never envisaged a situation that may see their drivers switch positions in a race? Have they really forgotten every time in the past when such a situation has happened to them?

And specifically, when Verstappen said "I told you already last summer. You guys don't ask that again to me, ok? Are we clear about that?" then clearly they have considered the situation in the past, which is when Verstappen told them his position.


"Regretfully, Max was only informed at the final corner of the request to give up position without all the necessary information being relayed." - I think they need to go back and check their own radio messages. Sadly, while I agree with the sentiment in the second half of their statement, it is hard to accept a moral stance from Red Bull when it is preceded by a blatant lie in public.

[Aysedasi]

Agree 100%.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Very poor from Max but apparently Checo already admitted to Monaco in the team, so hardly an out there conspiracy theory.

Do you have a source that confirms what you allege Checo did?

Sergio Perez has denied claims he crashed deliberately during Formula 1 qualifying at the Monaco Grand Prix

Asked on Thursday in Abu Dhabi if he had crashed purposely in Monaco, Perez denied it. - "“You can review the whole lap and you can already see that I nearly crashed already in Turn 1. I’m just giving it everything, it is the last run of Q3. People just make make mistakes, you know. And that’s really it when you’re chasing the laptime."

When asked about rumours that Red Bull had carried out an internal investigation into the Monaco crash and Perez had then admitted to doing it deliberately, Perez replied: “the rumour is wrong”.