Rotaries at LeMans?

[ZXKawboy]

Just out of curiousity, but does anyone know if there will be any rotary powered cars at Le Mans this year?

laters, all

[gttouring]

I thought they had been banned after mazda danced allover la sarthe

[MulsanneMike]

Not sure what Terada's plans are for This year. After the pretty lack luster showing with the 4-rotor WR P675 last year, I wouldn't be surprised if they reconsidered.

[ZXKawboy]

Well...

In response to the "no rotary" argument, I saw in the regulations a chart/index for rotary engines. I would surmise that it means rotary engines are allowed again.

And as a side note...Mazda didn't "dance all over la Sarthe" in '91. What they did was simply what was needed...they outlasted everyone else. For a vast majority of the race, if I recall (Mike..check me on this?) the 787B ran in fourth place.

On *another* side...I got to see the 787B a few years ago at Laguna. Eery sounding car. I love it!!

laters all...

[rdjones]

Terada has shelved his Mazda power Autoexe, and will be returning to Welter Racing for this years Le Mans. Not sure what Jim Downing's plans are for this year.

As a footnote, I have just been looking at the ACO site and the entry forms are out for this years Le Mans and it does in fact mention that Rotary are allowed.

[ZXKawboy]

Another request, mayhaps...

How about a spot on the 787B in the GTP/GrpC class?

[gttouring]

Ofcourse- to run and outlast every one for 24hrs. is the idea- 4th not so bad but you race to win- that's understood. rotaries are beauties, too bad it's so alien inseide, my old rx-7 is not something i fully get yet extracting N/A power from it i mean....sorry tangent.

[MulsanneMike]

Would be happy to do a spot on the 787. Just need photos, contacts, etc. I've been accumulating what I can, but so far I don't have enough to write up a page on it.

Rotaries have been at Le Mans since their win in '91. Jim was there in '95, '96, and '97 with the 3-Rotor ('95 & '96) and 4-rotor ('97). Of course Terada and Jim were there with the 4-rotor last year. So they haven't been banned since '91 to my knowledge.

In '91 Mercedes was in a league of their own. They were the only team able to dip into the mid 3:30s in the race. After that was essentially the Mazdas and a couple of 962s in the low 3:40s. The best the Jags could do were mid 3:40s. So it was up to Mercedes to beat themselve and they fulfilled their part admirably.

[ZXKawboy]

I'll see what I can find.

About a year ago, I found a great report online regarding the 787B, with regards to the engine development. (Hey...I'm a mechanical engineer. Engines are fun:P)

There was more added to it later regarding the chassis and areo characteristics, as well. The chassis was a Nigel Stroud work of art (no surprise there), so that may also be a starting point.

[Lee Janotta]

They're not banned, just handicapped.

If Mazda committed to a works 675 effort, they might be able to get a bit more room in the regs.

[alfasud]

Originally posted by ZXKawboy
About a year ago, I found a great report online regarding the 787B, with regards to the engine development. (Hey...I'm a mechanical engineer. Engines are fun:P)

Was this the report you were refering to ZXKawboy?

http://www.mymazdarotary.com/mazda_r...paper_html.htm
http://www.mymazdarotary.com/mazda_r...r26b_paper.doc

[ZXKawboy]

That's the one!!

Thanks, alfasud.

[xjr5006]

Mazda's great win in 91 was all down to a change in regs 7 days (10 dats?) before the event. They where either allowed to run lighter or have more fuel allocated or both. Its a while back folks. The jags would have otherwise walked it but couldn't go faster to the fuel (and extra weight and lower tunnels etc etc) and finished 2nd 3rd and 4th or without the reg change 1, 2 & 3. But history will not look at this and will bow to the superiority of the Mazda; I wont as it wasnt but didn't it sound wonderful!
Don

[MulsanneMike]

To say that does Mazda a big disjustice. I'm not aware of any rules changes days before the event. A read of Race Car Engineering's analysis of the Mazda 787B makes no mention of this. But I admit I could be mistaken on that point. I do know that Mazda ran to the same Category 2 regulations as Jag and Merecedes from a fuel standpoint, 2550 liters, but were allowed to run at 830 vs. 1000 kg. Irregardless, if the rules were so unfair, how come the Mercedes C11s were on tap to trounce everyone? Jaguar's failure is more about their continung insistence on using the overweight, 2 valve, stock block V12 motor more so than any other factor. Going to 7.4 liters didn't help much at all. From my standpoint, Jaguar didn't have a chance and wouldn't have "walked" if Mazda hadn't been there. Jag couldn't have even come close to competing with the C11s, and they were running to the exact same rules as Jaguar. Jag's failures were Jag's failures. Mazda optimized their car to the regulations they were running on and came out with a car faster than the Jags, but not as fast as the Mercedes. They then beat Mercedes by pure perseverance.

[dscwall]

because nobody expected the 3.5s to survive Merc and TWR revived the old V12 and V8s, the result was a 1000Kg weight penealty,at Peugeot's insistance, the IMSA class was set at 880Kg, Takayoshi Ohashi(Mazdaspeed boss)said this was not acceptable, the ACO keen to keep Mazda onside reduced the IMSA limit to 830Kg(sprint race limit). this meant the front discs had to be changed only once(less time in the pits). the Mercs were quicker, but unreliable, and the Jags at 1000Kg just too heavy,Andy Wallace complained about their speed out of the corners and general handling, at the end of the day Mazda produced a great car, had 3 great drivers and played the politics to perfection, they deserved to win

[ZXKawboy]

Folks, I have an engineering friend on the inside at Mazda USA. I'll call him and see what he can find out regarding the Mazda's so-called "allowances" at Le Mans that year.

Like Mike, though, I cannot find any mentions of *any* allowances within the regs toward Mazda.

I'll keep you all posted.

[MulsanneMike]

I wouldn't say that the Mercedes were categorically unreliable. Consider that the 5th placed car overall was a C11 with 356 laps, only 7 laps behind the leader. The #32 C11 retired when debris damaged an engine mount. The #1 C11 did retire with an engine failure though late in the race (319 laps).

[xjr5006]

Mazdas 91 win was as much a tribute to Takayoshi Ohashi playing poka with the ACO and winning as it was the cars running at Le Mans with a 120kg weight advantage Which went up to 170kg!. Lets also not forget the extra little fudge that the IMSA cars could carry more fuel, 120l I think. If I recall correctly the Mazdas took part in all the races that year and never made the podium at any time and generally didn't look likely to either. (I stand to be corrected on this) I still stuggle to get my head around racing a 24 hour race with well over a 20% weight penalty and all the implications this has, slower acceleration with greater fuel consumption, earlier braking with more wear and stress, more stops, more pad changes more tyre wear from scrubbing around corners etc etc. Perhaps both mercedes and Jaguar should be congratulated for their efforts. As for the V12 being too heavy and having just 2 valves I think this is a red herring; the Jags and Mercs would have blown the pants off everyone if the regs would have let them run at 850kgs, no doubt the Mercs would have won well with their reliability restored but what would the gap to the Mazdas have been 30 laps? 50 laps. Dont get me wrong I would love to aquire a 787, I have always believed in the ****les (oh come on cant I call a rotory by its proper name!? LOL) since my uncle stunned me with a ride in his RX2, but the dream would be the beautiful TWR chassis (XJR14) with the 4 rotor and lets turbo it too!
Don

[ZXKawboy]

True, it's a ****el engine :P

However...from what my contact can tell me, the 787B ran with no special dispensations at Le Mans that year.

Sad to say to all the naysayers that Mazda ran with full legitimacy that year, but it's true. Mazda ran with full legitimacy, no weight benefits, no fuel benefits ( or penalties), just a car that developed 700HP and was able to run the distance with little or no problem.

And *that* is the objective, first and foremost at LeMans....isn't it?

[MulsanneMike]

The Jag V12 lump a Red Herring? Disagree wholeheartedly. Again, evidence is with the C11s. Their mildy turbo-charged 5.0 liter motors, with that big, fat torque band, didn't have any lap-lap performance issues compared to the 787B. That was the bench mark for performance head to head with the 787B. And frankly the XJR-12s had more advanced aero packages than the C11 or 787Bs. Jag did everything right, but in the long term, at Le Mans '91, they were let down by the V12. In order to meet the fuel, and to reliably go the distance, they had to drop revs and hope the C11s would break.

Plus, it shouldn't be a surprise that the Mazda got the weight break. Yes, they were no where in the '91 World Championship, continuously multiply laps down at the finish, many seconds adrift in qualifying. Clearly the Mazdas hadn't been equated fairly in FIA Group C competition. Anyone will tell you that the rotary always suffered when compared head-to-head with the piston motors. Sure they are reliable, but they aren't the most prodigious power outputers. The '91 R26B shelled out 690 hp at 9000 rpm. The 7.4 liter Jag? Easily 740, the turbo Benz 5.0, 900 in qualifying (though they always denied wringing the boost up) 850 or less in race. And we can't even talk about usable torque as the rotaries have it all up in the high revs (448 lb.-ft. @ 6500 rpm) where you can't use it coming out of a corner. They are notoriously peaky from a torque standpoint. Lord knows both the turbo V8 and N/A V12 had more torque than they knew what to do with when they wanted it out of the corner. So with a target power to weight ratio of 2.6 lbs/hp, both the Mazda and the C11 measure up, while the Jag is let down.

I do agree the increased weight hurt the C11s and XJR-12s and the rest of the non-rotary Category 2 cars in the reliability sense. But that shouldn't take anything away from Mazda. Mazda designed their car to make best use of what was laid out for them and they designed a better package than anyone else. Even Tom Walkinshaw realised that, he was the first person to congratulate Takayoshi Ohashi.

[IanGrohse]

There was a wonderful article in Road and Track about a year ago written Paul Freer(spelling?!?....Dad will kill me!!) in which he tested the 787B....They were kind enough to put in another seat so he could take him family around! But great pictures and great article.

[dscwall]

lets not forget the 3 drivers! They charged from the start, and it was this tactic that allowed them to benefit from others misfortune, had a Mazda been driven so fast before at Le Mans? the other two cars finished 6th and 8th.
The weight break came during the winter of 90/91 the ACO were keen to keep a Japanese prescence in the race as Nissan and Toyota were happy to sit on the sidelines. Mazda only ran half heartedly in the Championship to gain an entry at Le Mans.Politics is part of the game, TWR got the "jungle juice" that some of the Porsches were running banned to aid the cause of the Jags in the 80's.Mazda played a smart game and it panned out for them,and it still hurts Nissan and Toyota today.

[Brant]

Riveting thread, wasn't TWR's XJR-14's on the provisional entry list?

[MulsanneMike]

Yes, the Category 1 cars were all the 3.5 liter machinery. But only Peugeot was serious about running them at Le Mans that year. The XJR-14 qualified 1st (3:31.912) in Category 1 (the top grid positions were set aside for all the 3.5 liter cars) but TWR withdrew the car as they really never had any intention of racing the car.

[xjr5006]

The XJR14 wasn't allowed to start the race from pole as the engine had been buzzed. The engines were never owned by TWR/Jaguar they were 'hired' from and owned by Cosworth. Just putting another lump in wasn't considered realistic as the car would never have lasted anyway.
I just had to check a few old books and believe that the regs where changed in Mazdas favour at the end of April, some 6 to 8 weeks before the race. Why didn't TW complain? was he still doing the deal to supply XJR14 chassis to Mazda at the time? he certainly had ties with Mazda that went back many years and was supplying TWR/Mazda sport upgrades.
So was the Mazda 787 a world beater? No way, I think a 956 would have given it a hiding given a level playing field, but it was gloriously in the right place at the right time because of clever politics. Let us also not forget that the drivers also had to do the 24 hours and get across the line 1st whatever the pros and cons.
Another example of politics and money is the Jaguar win? at Daytona in 1993! Now thats good for a discusion, how to be robbed, sort of, on your farewell outing.
Don