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Old Today, 03:56 (Ref:3913007)   #7021
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I like hypercar in that we might be getting cars like the Valkyrie in looks. But at the same time I'm not sure on it because we might get some cars that look like a GTE with a different bodykit. At least with lmp1 we have a class where we see cars that look like... lmp's. And then bop is a great way to minimize the results of a teams investment and innovation in the class. I don't want innovation or clever thinking to be frowned on and standardized in the name of "fair competition". At the same time for that one, you don't want a VAG situation where two teams are spending F1-level budgets against eachother drowning out the other competitors. It's a tough thing to balance I guess.

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Old Today, 05:20 (Ref:3913018)   #7022
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Originally Posted by chernaudi View Post
If it renews interest in LMP1 and brings variety back to the sport, I'm all for it.
It won't though. LMP1 at Le Mans is still one of those situations even right now where you get new stuff to look at every year, while we get to look forward to seeing the Valkyrie and GR Supersport show up exactly the same for like 5 years as every race bleeds together. I can barely remember what year DPi came in off hand because at this point it simultaneously feels like it was yesterday and forever ago, because there's no difference between those two points.
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Old Today, 05:41 (Ref:3913021)   #7023
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I agree with you but there's an allowance for the cars to change. Not sure if it's one or the other but interviews so far have listed two; a change in the brands look/identity and a 'joker' type upgrade to the car.
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Old Today, 13:52 (Ref:3913100)   #7024
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The one and only reason to build cars in bop class is marketing. There is no other element, because what's underneath the hood is irrelevant and nobody cares about the impact of technology. Watching the giant GTE-PRO (= upcoming Hypercar) wrestling train showride at Le Mans last weekend looked visually "impressive' I guess, but it's all hollow nonsense once you realize there's nothing to it, they're effectively all transformed into NASCAR spec cars (which for some reason are despised by purists even though it's the same ideology). It's like Michael Bay film, there's all sort of exploding crap in it to make it look like a real movie, but in the end there's no plot or sense of wonder or art. That's why the occasional SMP-ART vs Rebellion had so much more impact... it felt like it mattered what these teams had achieved, but also it wasn't constant "swinging shiny object to the cat" -effect. Hell I even remember one Indianapolis corner overtook from the RTLM race, but not a single one from the GTE train. It's just one big blur.

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Old Today, 14:04 (Ref:3913103)   #7025
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Originally Posted by Chiana View Post
The one and only reason to build cars in bop class is marketing. There is no other element, because what's underneath the hood is irrelevant and nobody cares about the impact of technology. Watching the giant GTE-PRO (= upcoming Hypercar) wrestling train showride at Le Mans last weekend looked visually "impressive' I guess, but it's all hollow nonsense once you realize there's nothing to it, they're effectively all transformed into NASCAR spec cars (which for some reason are despised by purists even though it's the same ideology). It's like Michael Bay film, there's all sort of exploding crap in it to make it look like a real movie, but in the end there's no plot or sense of wonder or art. That's why the occasional SMP-ART vs Rebellion had so much more impact... it felt like it mattered what these teams had achieved, but also it wasn't constant "swinging shiny object to the cat" -effect. Hell I even remember one Indianapolis corner overtook from the RTLM race, but not a single one from the GTE train. It's just one big blur.
We get it, you don't understand the requirements of racing and that is has ALWAYS been marketing. But for the love of god find anything else to follow, I'm considering forgoing the discussions on Ten-tenths entirely and PURELY to avoid this bs constantly. You don't add to the conversation and constantly hijack every thread to beat the drum of stupidity. Please tell me your life is so perfect in every other way that this is the only thing that's wrong in it.

But marketing has driven every decision from manufacturers to enter, to race and to improve their car. Return on investment requires a smaller investment of time, money and energy as they don't have access to the high profit sponsors of the past, cigarettes, alcohol, etc, AND more importantly, kids with disposable income could not possibly care any less about cars in huge numbers. Your options are not the (never actually happened long term) golden age of no rules or BOP, it's no racing or controlled investment racing. That's the only options and stop acting like a petulant little child. We get it, you are but GROW THE F UP.
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Old Today, 14:42 (Ref:3913108)   #7026
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Stupid question from me here, because my knowledge really only goes back to the 90s - but hasn't there been balancing of cars at Le Mans, IMSA, etc, for decades? didn't they balance GTP and things, and balance classes together and restrict cars etc?

From my (very uninformed) view, is the key difference between now and then, that they do more fine tuning of balance, and it actually has a name now - "BoP". So now that it has a name, it's a real thing and there's something to point anger towards?
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Old Today, 14:54 (Ref:3913113)   #7027
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bentley speed 8 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridbentley speed 8 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
There are also things that BoP can't fix, like the Aston that ate its tires at Le Mans, or fixing the dodgy reliability of a new car...
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Old Today, 15:04 (Ref:3913117)   #7028
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Originally Posted by Chiana View Post
The one and only reason to build cars in bop class is marketing. There is no other element, because what's underneath the hood is irrelevant and nobody cares about the impact of technology.
To raise a question against this point, and please excuse the off-topic series', but how do you explain the motivation of the following:

Team Dynamics, Motorbase and Laser Tools building cars for BTCC.
Vukovic, Cyan and Saxon building cars for TCR.

There are many BOP series where cars are built to race, not to market.
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Old Today, 15:19 (Ref:3913122)   #7029
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
Stupid question from me here, because my knowledge really only goes back to the 90s - but hasn't there been balancing of cars at Le Mans, IMSA, etc, for decades? didn't they balance GTP and things, and balance classes together and restrict cars etc?

From my (very uninformed) view, is the key difference between now and then, that they do more fine tuning of balance, and it actually has a name now - "BoP". So now that it has a name, it's a real thing and there's something to point anger towards?
Balance between different classes and minor things here and there is different to full BoP, invented by Step Ratel's organisation for FIA GT in 2004, and fully implemented by the launch of FIA GT3 in 2005.

By the way

http://archive.dailysportscar.com/su.../dougfehan.htm
“-- But the fans are smart. They don’t want to see contrived competition. If you go overboard on regulation changes, the fans will figure it out. Relying on regulations to make teams competitive is a slippery slope to be on. It’s like a tube of toothpaste. Once you’ve squeezed the paste out, it’s tough to get it back into the tube. Decisions like this can affect much more than appears on the surface.”

https://tentenths.com/forum/showpost...&postcount=424
“When I saw what was happening, the direction that we were headed, I warned the officials that they had better watch out. They were setting a precedent that could bite them in the future."
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Old Today, 15:22 (Ref:3913124)   #7030
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
To raise a question against this point, and please excuse the off-topic series', but how do you explain the motivation of the following:

Team Dynamics, Motorbase and Laser Tools building cars for BTCC.
Vukovic, Cyan and Saxon building cars for TCR.

There are many BOP series where cars are built to race, not to market.
I don't know anything about BTCC or TCR (that's touring car's version of GT3 right) to really comment on that but someone needs to build the things, yes?
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Old Today, 16:22 (Ref:3913139)   #7031
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As much as I don't like how frequently BOP gets used/changed in racing, some form of it is going to be a reality. Hypercar LMP1 is supposed to be less expensive than current LMP1 or even 2006-13 LMP1. That does mean compromises.

That means heavier cars, which should drive cost down. That means less powerful hybrid systems and the option to not have to run one. That also means performance balancing. That genie got let out of the bottle in LMP1 in 2006, and it's never going to fully go back into the bottle. As long as the ACO are reasonable with application of it, I can't really complain too much.

One thing that I don't get is basically going to a spec tire, at least initially. We know that Michelin will probably get the nod, due to French nationalism and the fact that all the current LMP1 and GTE teams have alliances with Michelin. AMR even uses Michelin tires on the Vulcan and Valkyrie hyper car road/track day cars as original equipment.

However, the ACO have said that up to 5 different constructions of tires may be authorized for various machinery. If the ACO want to go that route, why not keep it open tire? Isn't the point of a spec tire to make BOP easier? Either this is the ACO handing Michelin a tire contract (since they're unlikely to be in F1 anytime very soon), or the ACO messing about with stuff again.
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Old Today, 19:58 (Ref:3913168)   #7032
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The purpose of BoP is to allow for customer/privateer teams in lower championships to just show up with the car they have rather than needing to go out and buy the current preferred car or spend a bunch on R&D. It's for teams championships, not manufacturer championships, but was forced into the latter because of desperate organizers catering to half-assed manufacturers to fill fields through poor economic times then exploited into the mess we have now where corporate execs directly influence results instead of needing better designers and engineers and all the power is collected at the top creating a corrupt self-sustaining system.

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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
Stupid question from me here, because my knowledge really only goes back to the 90s - but hasn't there been balancing of cars at Le Mans, IMSA, etc, for decades? didn't they balance GTP and things, and balance classes together and restrict cars etc?

From my (very uninformed) view, is the key difference between now and then, that they do more fine tuning of balance, and it actually has a name now - "BoP". So now that it has a name, it's a real thing and there's something to point anger towards?
In the past balancing applied to broad categories of cars at least in theory. At times changes between those categories would really only affect one car, which tended to result in large amounts of outrage if they had meaningful affects (nobody cares if rotaries are just slow instead of really slow obviously). In modern times you get completely different rules for a Corvette and Viper even though they are extremely similar cars with extremely similar performance purely for the sake of manipulating results. Like sure you can't say it never happened before but it was not well accepted.

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We get it, you don't understand the requirements of racing and that is has ALWAYS been marketing.
That is utter horse ****. Why are you even watching if you think this crap?
And stop with this RULES=BOP nonsense garbage, for f's sake. Especially if you're going to complain about other people discussing things wrong, you can't just turn around and be intentionally obtuse and try to shut down conversation that way.


Unlike the BS we're fed about a 911 and a Corvette being so different they couldn't possibly compete fairly even though the road cars perform near identically and they've raced competitively for eons, hypercar really is casting its net so wide to try to fill a class that a restyled TS050, a Valkyrie, and whatever road focused hypercar are legitimately impossible to fit under a single set of rules at least. You're looking at like a 700kg range of base vehicle weights there just to start. It will be a struggle to get two cars that are even similar enough to apply any equivalency that wouldn't immediately be the same as BoP anyways.
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Old Today, 20:23 (Ref:3913174)   #7033
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Anyone even have an idea as far as the what the ACO/FIA have published as far as what is/could be legal or not under hypercar LMP1 regs? For instance, will we still have the chamfered floors and tunnel type rear diffusers? Or will we revert to GTE-type front and rear diffusers and flat floors?

And, clearly, the big volume tunnels and F1-style front wing on the Valkyrie can't be legal, right?

I doubt that the ACO's or FIA's sites have detailed regs, and the best I've been able to find are some generic renders of what the ACO envision LMP1 "hypercars" maybe looking like, as well as renders of the AM Valkyrie and TGR Super Sport concept cars.
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Old Today, 21:38 (Ref:3913190)   #7034
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The prototype cars have similar floors to the current cars. It's a complete mystery for road based cars.
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Old Today, 21:53 (Ref:3913193)   #7035
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If you have a GT3 clone class my guess is "whatever" gets accepted. Or then they have theoretically strict regulations but not a single car conforms to them thanks to GTE esq waivers

Anyway lots of people on youtube touting this as the rebirth of GT1... Ehmm
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