How to fix F1?

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I think to a degree, that level of stability is exactly what Liberty is looking to put in place. There will always be a pecking order. Someone on top and someone at the bottom. They just want a healthy grid and ideally not someone who is overly dominant.

for sure, they have a product to sell and there is an expectation that it delivers what is expected. after all, remember how mad everyone got after new coke came out.

the risk of alienating people is probably too great of a risk for any business to even want to take a risk these days. and from a sporting perspective, maybe a radical change by one team leading to victories could come across as fluky and devalue the sport.

but i would very much like to see someone try!

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Any management team can get sucked into making bad or risky decisions. So never say never, but generally I expect that someone like a Dorilton Capital is more interested in getting a good management structure in place and to ensure money is being spent wisely.

one would assume sound management would yield a professional team ethos based on hard work and tested/proven development strategies but there is also no guarantee that success on the race track is their primary desire...nor the desire for their sponsors.

Gennii for example may have only been in F1 more for the B2B deals and fancy parties for their clients and sponsors.

for a certain group, the primary goal of an F1 team (or any sports team for that matter) could just be access and getting that access is money wisely spent. for them there is no PR downside but a huge upside if the stars align and Kimiesque type driver can deliver a surprise win or two....granted their model didnt last too long but may have under a budget cap system.

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

But the F1 regulations as they exist now, are for the most part about defining a small number of sandboxes in which teams can play in and each of those sandboxes are relatively small. So the likely performance gains (and losses) are also relatively small. So "getting it wrong" may put you at the back of the pack, but hopefully not woefully so. That allows team to engineer themselves to the front, but also to not be a total embarrassment to their sponsors if they don't get it right.

indeed the sandbox is small and purposely so. honestly i cant imagine the chaos a completely open box formula would have. while it might be a crazy fun ride for a couple of seasons, i would think after that it would get silly fast.

but the other side of the new rules, perhaps an unintended consequence of them, is that because of the budget cap and the growing list of listed and standardized parts which can be bought, will catching up to a top team be as hard as it used to be?

rather, taking a chance might not mean much more then a lost season as the path to recovery may now be more direct and cheaper as the relative funding gap between the teams decreases.

very curious to see how Aston can rebound next season after going down the wrong path this year.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

While I think my position of... open regulations create unstable business environment, I do think the areas in which the regulations are open and what types of development are outlawed is wrong in a few places.

I have commented on this before, but I think the sport could benefit from allowing active aero and active suspension. My argument is that there could be constraints that ensure the solutions are more "software" vs. "hardware" and that means that it could be cheaper to iterate and develop. So the overall risk of trying something new is lower.

Take suspension for example. The sport is locked into overly complex and likely expensive mechanical solutions only because the regulations prevent progress. I would do it this way...

* Spec ECU just for active suspension.
* Limit the number and type of sensors and actuators.
* Consider even homologating the sensors and actuators.

How teams implement their solution, is broadly up to them. The difference would be mostly in the software. Existing rules on things like wheelbase, etc. still would apply.

Richard

I have done a lot of data logging over many years and have mentioned the same thing here quite a few times. There should be a limit to the number of channels, they can log any channels/sensors they want but the limit should something like 30 and they can nominate which channels they will be using on any weekend. Secondly they should not be able to link back to the factory at all from the start of practise and the number of engineers and screens on the pit wall should be limited. Of course live telemetry should not be allowed at all and scrap all the steering wheel controls as well. If I had my way they would get a laptop each and told to get on with it but that ship sailed many years ago. Limit their data capture and limit the expense surrounding it will cut costs and add a bit more chance to the whole thing.

I agree and again have said that active suspension is a money saver and would remove a lot of complexity from the cars. It will be interesting to see how the bigger wheels affects suspension design because a lot of compliance is built into the tyres and all that goes away with the introduction of the bigger wheels and they will have to allow more total suspension movement and that will cause them problems with holding the height of the car for aero purposes as they do now. Put active suspension in the cars and be done with it.

Limiting access to the technology they now depend on will go a long way to sorting out many of F1's problems and perhaps reduce the huge differences now seen between the front and the back.....maybe.

[wnut]

This to me is the biggest problem in F1, the cars are just too big and much to heavy tp race effectively, up to 790 kg in 2022.

How F1 cars got so heavy and why its only getting worse:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqvmHyz5yE4

F1 could address the weight problem by adopting a 1 litre turbo charged engine with no hybrid system which would use less fuel and weigh much less, but that would be a no no because it does not have a hybrid engine.

So much for efficient and green then!

"It looks like the era of F1 as light weight super sharp single seaters has passed."

[S griffin]

Another thing is the heavier cars unfairly penalises the taller/heavier drivers. No doubt Mark Webber got out of F1 at just the right time

[wnut]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Another thing is the heavier cars unfairly penalises the taller/heavier drivers. No doubt Mark Webber got out of F1 at just the right time

There is a mandatory 80kg required for the driver and his seat now Griff, that is why they have to stand on the scale at the end of the races. Should up it to 90 kg for the bigger guys, but it is at least a reasonable allowance.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by wnut

F1 could address the weight problem by adopting a 1 litre turbo charged engine with no hybrid system which would use less fuel and weigh much less, but that would be a no no because it does not have a hybrid engine.

And, if you want it to use less fuel, be much less powerful than the current power units.
If you want the power they have now and to use less fuel then you need the hybrid.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Another thing is the heavier cars unfairly penalises the taller/heavier drivers. No doubt Mark Webber got out of F1 at just the right time

Do they? The driver’s weight is the weight, at least this is a lower proportion of the overall weight.

Ultimately, as wnut says, they have a rule that not only compensates for the driver’s weight, but also, to a certain extent, the position of the weight.

[S griffin]

It’s probably fairer then they have a minimum weight for the drivers. It’s ridiculous the amount of dieting the drivers had to do when the hybrids first came in

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by wnut

There is a mandatory 80kg required for the driver and his seat now Griff, that is why they have to stand on the scale at the end of the races. Should up it to 90 kg for the bigger guys, but it is at least a reasonable allowance.

Interestingly - for 2019 Bottas said he was glad the rule changed, so that he could add 2-3kgs and be back to his normal weight.

The list of drivers shows that he is not heavy compared to the field:

Driver	Height	Weight
Antonio Giovinazzi	1.85m (6' 1")	75kg
Lewis Hamilton	1.74m (5' 7")	73kg
Nicholas Latiffi	1.85m (6' 1")	73kg
Max Verstappen	1.81m (5' 9")	72kg
Lance Stroll	1.82m (5' 10")	70kg
Pierre Gasly	1.77m (5' 8")	70kg
Kimi Raikkonen	1.75m (5' 8")	70kg
George Russell	1.85m (6' 1")	70kg
Valtteri Bottas	1.73m (5' 7")	69kg
Charles Leclerc	1.80m (5' 9")	69kg
Fernando Alonso	1.71m (5' 6")	68kg
Lando Norris	1.70m (5' 6")	68kg
Nikita Mazepin	1.76m (5' 8")	68kg
Esteban Ocon	1.86m (6' 1")	66kg
Daniel Ricciardo	1.80m (5' 9")	66kg
Carlos Sainz	1.78m (5' 8")	64kg
Sergio Perez	1.73m (5' 7")	63kg
Sebastian Vettel	1.75m (5' 8")	62kg
Mick Schumacher	1.70m (5' 6")	60kg
Yuki Tsunoda	1.59m (5' 2")	54kg

From the list - there seems to be no advantage to being a 'light' driver....

[Casper]

Everyone is on about weight and size but no one wants to address the technology that causes the problems which sets the field in a predictable pecking order. Another big issue is that these cars are simply too fast and circuits have not grown with the cars. As lap times become shorter there is less time for drivers to do anything except follow the car is front in a lot of cases.

[S griffin]

The worst thing is they increased the speed in the wrong area. By increasing the aero, it has only made things worse. Cars now tend to go round on rails and the increased aero makes it harder to follow

[Casper]

Originally Posted by S griffin

The worst thing is they increased the speed in the wrong area. By increasing the aero, it has only made things worse. Cars now tend to go round on rails and the increased aero makes it harder to follow

Yes and cars become faster because of some of those reasons. Forget how it is done, more HP, better aero grip etc the time is the factor. If tracks were updated as cars became faster it would not be such a problem but that is clearly not practical.

[S griffin]

Exactly, the cars should suit the circuits, not the other way round

[Tourer]

Hamilton - "I don't understand why F1 cars are getting heavier".

Seems like the penny might have finally dropped for some in the sport - it really is ridiculous when next years cars, fuelled up at the start are going to be approximately 900kg! The rule makers really have lost all sight of what F1 should be about - light, nimble, on the edge. Personally, I blame the vast majority of it on the heavy and large hybrid power systems & all the over-complication and over-thinking that has come from that - but I tend to be a fixated on that in all honesty.

The one potential saving grace to me of next year's cars is the combination of less aero and 18 inch wheels - I suspect that it should be more straightforward to build tyres to deal with the current demands on 18 inch, simply because there are so many racing series and high end road cars running on larger diameter packages with big advances in tech that probably can't be used on the current 13 inch diameter.

[Adam43]

The start weight is just used to make it sound dramatic. And that kind of drama doesn’t help.

But he is right.

Although I agree the blame isn’t fully on the hybrids. Which do help make them quicker, especially if you consider the fuel used. Although it is a shame that they can’t push this to an optimal solution rather than it being constrained by the rules. But I get why.

But I do disagree with the change to bigger wheels. Frankly for road cars, especially, the big wheels are horrible. Ruin cars. Mainly the ride. And also the looks.

If I ruled the world no cars would be on anything more than 17”. That’s what the McLaren F1 had and that defines it for me. Like the CSCC swinging sixties I’d have 60 profile minimum.

[P38 in workshop]

Originally Posted by Adam43

The start weight is just used to make it sound dramatic. And that kind of drama doesn’t help.

But he is right.

Although I agree the blame isn’t fully on the hybrids. Which do help make them quicker, especially if you consider the fuel used. Although it is a shame that they can’t push this to an optimal solution rather than it being constrained by the rules. But I get why.

But I do disagree with the change to bigger wheels. Frankly for road cars, especially, the big wheels are horrible. Ruin cars. Mainly the ride. And also the looks.

If I ruled the world no cars would be on anything more than 17”. That’s what the McLaren F1 had and that defines it for me. Like the CSCC swinging sixties I’d have 60 profile minimum.

I can't disagree with a single word. I also suspect the move to ever larger wheels on road cars is partly driven by fashion arbiters deciding what looks "cool". There was a time when designers made huge efforts to avoid unsprung weight and guess what these monster wheels are?The other thing that annoys me with huge wheels on road cars is the way they eat into the usable space within the car.Has anybody else tried sitting in car with huge wheel arches intruding into the footwell and forcing a twisted driving position?


Maybe the answer would have been to stipulate a limit for car,driver,fuel and all wheels and tyres that would be used during the race while not mandating the use of 18 inch wheels.If ten kilos off the weight of the wheels with no great time penalty was the answer,we would soon find out.I don't relish the thought of watching F1 cars that are the size of American pickup trucks.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Why the need for 18'' wheels? IIRC didn't Michelin say a few years ago they would return to F1, if the wheel size was changed to 18'', as they were already using 18'' wheels in WEC and it would be cheaper, rather than having to use a different wheel size for F1? The wheel size wasn't increased, Michelin didn't return to F1 but as from next year wheel size will change.

[Tourer]

Don't recall the reasoning behind the switch to 18" but think you're right, the Michelin point sounds correct - it might also be driven by the "road car relevance" thought process that seems prevalent within the walls of F1 power these days.

Problem is of course that road cars get bigger and bigger, heavier and heavier and need more and more power to move them along and are way less wieldy than their predecessors - just like F1.

18" will be a massive pain in the arse for the teams, which have whole systems and freight methods built around 13" rims & it's likely that the wheel change crews will have to bulk up a bit for what is probably going to be a heavier wheel/tyre combo.

The benefit to 18" as I see it is that Pirelli (or anyone else) should be able to deliver more robust and better tyres more easily, given that there is useable structure architecture for 18" from other series with similar weight to the current heavyweight "F1" cars.

Not a fan of the bigger wheels but that's the silver lining that I see in the bigger wheel cloud.

[P38 in workshop]

Some of the other effects of larger wheels will be that the boxes used to take the wheels to flyaway events will be bigger and heavier.The larger rims will allow the use of much larger brake discs and although there are rumblings about using less efficient materials it would take away a passing strategy and potentially give the drivers a higher load to withstand.Will it also lead to wheel changers needing to be bodybuilders?I have heard whispers that physical prowess has partly replaced mechanical know-how for the pit crew,with the teams onsite gyms seeing lots of use-unlike the days when the guys who could and did change gear ratios between sessions passed wheels or manned jacks.Would the new regs specify a minimum weight that would allow onboard airjacks?

[Casper]

Do the new wheels have a larger diameter? I would have thought it would have been the same or close because otherwise the gearing they use would have to be changed. The teams have far larger issues to deal with because of the change than the size of the boxes as this is most probably the single biggest change in a very long time and will affect the whole car design. The first thing that is needed when designing a car is the wheel and tyre dimensions and that has not changed in yonks so all the suspension design and knowledge they have accumulated has to be binned.

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

Some of the other effects of larger wheels will be that the boxes used to take the wheels to flyaway events will be bigger and heavier.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Casper

Do the new wheels have a larger diameter? I would have thought it would have been the same or close because otherwise the gearing they use would have to be changed. The teams have far larger issues to deal with because of the change than the size of the boxes as this is most probably the single biggest change in a very long time and will affect the whole car design. The first thing that is needed when designing a car is the wheel and tyre dimensions and that has not changed in yonks so all the suspension design and knowledge they have accumulated has to be binned.

The new wheels have an 18'' diameter. So regarding the 2022 car, one would have thought that been taken into account, when devising the new formula.

This article is worth reading,

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/a...tyres-for-2022

[chillibowl]

Formula SUV!

[Adam43]

Wheels are a bigger diameter, but the tyres are lower profile. Outer tyre diameter will be comparable.

[Richard C]

As others mentioned, I think it was mostly road relevancy as the old/current 13" wheels are mostly legacy spec and the world has moved forward. Including other series such as WEC. The other is that I expect few manufactures were interested in continuing to maintain tire technology that was very specific to F1. As others mentioned, 18" racing tires is well understood and has been in place for years.

Overall weight will be higher. Polar moment of inertia will be higher (more of the weight is located further from the axis of rotation). So this should have "some" negative impact on braking and acceleration. But given the cars are going through a massive spec change in 2022 it will be hard to do apples to apples comparison between 2021 13" and 2022 18" wheels in F1 given the overall number of changes from 2021 to 2022.

The weight increase could be negated by something like carbon fiber wheels, but the current (and 2022+) specs prevent that type of material from being used in wheels even if it could be done. I expect the reasoning is cost (which makes sense).

I find the comments about the larger size of wheels creating troubles for team with respect to travel considerations. I have no doubt that is true, but that seems a minor consideration (even if significant for those folks who are in charge of such things), but minor overall.

Sadly, I expect there to be tire drama in 2022. Will that be due to the 18" wheels, the new 2022 car designs? I suspect it may be a bit of all of the above. No doubt people will blame the move to 18" wheels and use it as an argument for keeping the current 13" solution. It is a change. There will be issues.

Overall, I support the change (not that F1 needed my support!) I think they will look great on the new cars.

Richard

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

...I have heard whispers that physical prowess has partly replaced mechanical know-how for the pit crew,with the teams onsite gyms seeing lots of use-unlike the days when the guys who could and did change gear ratios between sessions passed wheels or manned jacks...

bit of an aside...

pit stop times look to be dropping all the time though and while some of this has to do with bespoke equipment and better procedures, i would have to think some of it also comes from treating the mechanics as if they are also athletes...better training, physical conditioning, diet, conditioning etc.

at this level of sport, is needing them to be more athlete then mechanic an issue?

about a decade ago Williams, when about the only thing they could do right were pit stops, had hired former US Olympian Michael Johnson to start training their pit crews. for a few years there, Williams were consistently winning those DHL awards although now RB has the advantage.

anyways, this doesnt have much to do with tire size so more directly to your point, i do agree with it.

heavier cars/parts/tires plus more races more travel etc, the increasing physical demands being placed on mechanics should be a cause for concern particularly if that physical need is coming at the cost of technical ability. obviously no one wants the trade off to be a less safe working environment.

extra weight/freight will also have trade offs in terms of F1's stated carbon neutral/sustainably goals.