"Proper" touring car

[cos]

With WSR using the BMW and Vauxhall racing the Vectra in this year's BTCC a number of people have said it's good that "proper" touring cars are returning to the BTCC as opposed to hatchbacks and the like. For example, in the BTCC 2007 rumours thread:

Im just glad to see proper touring cars back in the BTCC.

I'm just wondering why the 4/5 door saloon has come to be seen by many as the ideal form of the Touring Car. After all, a touring car is only what the regulations say it can and can't be... is it just a hankering back to the ST days, or should 4/5 door saloons be a proper standard for touring car racing?

[Rockmunky]

I think it's probably a bit of nostalgia... let's be honest, a 4/5 door car is more reminiscent of super touring days (that i don't remember) than a 2 door Astra for example.

[PDS]

Originally Posted by Rockmunky

I think it's probably a bit of nostalgia... let's be honest, a 4/5 door car is more reminiscent of super touring days (that i don't remember) than a 2 door Astra for example.

You need to get out more!

The only other types of touring cars worth watching are...

DTM. 4 door saloons!
V8 Supercars. 4 door saloons!

[Sodemo]

I think its because people have associations with hatchbacks being for support / feeder series', and that the bigger cars are the "main event".

Or maybe because smaller cars are generally seen as being more feminine in terms of marketing direction, and that the bigger, masculine cars appeal more to the typical male motorsport fan?

[Antrodemus]

It could be because a hatchback isn't a 'touring car' as such. IIRC the term came from larger cars used for open road touring.

[Peter Mallett]

The Capri and the Rover SD1 were hatchbacks.

Edited by the SD flippin' 1 owners' club!

[Jimmy Magnusson]

PDS, DTM and V8's? A sleeping pill and a series where the judges hand out drive throughs like candy! BTCC, STCC and WTCC all the way for me.

Peter, I thought most people had forgot about those days? For me, a touring car is a four-door saloon, like the old ST days.

[Peter Mallett]

Why forget what was the best touring car era, apart from the Group 2 days? BTW the Vectra and the Mondeo were ST hatchbacks.

[KA]

I think it must be tied up with when you first started watching touring cars- personally, I go back to early/mid 80's Group A, so I've never got hung up on the whole 2/4 door saloon/coupe/hatch thing- if the regs say it's a touring car, then it's a touring car.

Jimmy- thanks for making me feel old....

[sharpy]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

BTW the Vectra and the Mondeo were ST hatchbacks.

The Super Touring Vectra was always a saloon, the Mondeo was a hatchback from 1996 to 2000.

I don't know why they have chosen a hatchback Vectra for this season unless the saloon is to long?

[EuropaBambaataa]

Originally Posted by sharpy

The Super Touring Vectra was always a saloon, the Mondeo was a hatchback from 1996 to 2000.

I don't know why they have chosen a hatchback Vectra for this season unless the saloon is to long?

No, both cars have the same length. But Opel considers the GTS body the "sporty" version. I guess it reminded someone at Rüsselsheim of the Opel Monza.

Coincidentally, Opel ran an Astra GSi hatch supertourer in the Portuguese Touring Car Championship in 1993 and 1994.

[PDS]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Why forget what was the best touring car era, apart from the Group 2 days? BTW the Vectra and the Mondeo were ST hatchbacks.

The Mondeo started its racing life as a saloon! Andy Rouse introduced the Saloon in 1993 at Pembury.
http://www.stillphotography.co.uk/ga...ouse_pembrey_w

And the first driver to race a hatchback was?

Anyone know???

[PDS]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

PDS, DTM and V8's? A sleeping pill and a series where the judges hand out drive throughs like candy! BTCC, STCC and WTCC all the way for me.

Peter, I thought most people had forgot about those days? For me, a touring car is a four-door saloon, like the old ST days.

I was just saying that these other touring cars use the larger 4/5 door models as oppossed to the smaller 'hot hatch'!

[Peter Mallett]

I stand corrected re the Vectra but the Mondeo got its success as a hatchback.

As to the first driver I suspect it was Jon Dooley in the Alfa unless you are thinking of the Austin A40.

[PDS]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I stand corrected re the Vectra but the Mondeo got its success as a hatchback.

As to the first driver I suspect it was Jon Dooley in the Alfa unless you are thinking of the Austin A40.

NO! I was talking about the Ford Mondeo Hatchback!!!

[Ola]

Then again - the Volvo 850 STationwagon Super Touring car was bloody proper in its own way

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by PDS

And the first driver to race a hatchback was?
Anyone know???

In BTCC Charlie Cox, although they used the 5-door hatch in Germany before that.

[MGDavid]

I've always thought it confusing that several manufacturers use touring as a model designator for the estate version

[PDS]

Originally Posted by redshoes

In BTCC Charlie Cox, although they used the 5-door hatch in Germany before that.

Spot on Redshoes!

Charlie Cox returned to the BTCC after his massive Thruxton crash with a Hatchback version.
http://www.stillphotography.co.uk/ga...28/95_cox_snet

Whilst in Germany they were racing the Hatchback as 4x4 models!

[Peter Mallett]

Sorry POS I was thinking about vreal cars not the crap that ran as ST or even the current crap.

[chavez]

IIRC one of the first Andy Rouse Mondeos was rear wheel drive. Did this ever race or was it used in only testing?

[KA]

The rwd Mondeo only ever tested- by the time the car came to make it's race debut, they'd decided that fwd was the way to go.

Didn't Vauxhall try the Cavalier in rwd form at some point very early on?

[racer69]

Chris Hodgett's drove a second works Vauxhall (#70) in RWD form at Oulton Park in 1990, alongside John Cleland's (#50) FWD version.

They ran a second car for the rest of the year, driven by Hodgett's for a while, then later that likes of David Coulthard and Markus Oesterich, but i'm not sure if it was still in RWD trim, or whether they started running FWD cars.

Cleland is quoted on the 1990 BTCC review as saying that he preferred the FWD car.

In Australia Ross Palmer, who ran a Mondeo in the 1995 ASTC for the late Gregg Hansford and later Jeff Allam, tossed up building a RWD version of the Mondeo for the 1996 ASTC to try and match the BMW's. In the end it didn't happen, and Kevin Schwantz made a one-off appearance for the team at the season finale at Oran Park, with the car still in FWD trim

[touringlegend]

Originally Posted by PDS

Spot on Redshoes!

Charlie Cox returned to the BTCC after his massive Thruxton crash with a Hatchback version.
http://www.stillphotography.co.uk/ga...28/95_cox_snet

Whilst in Germany they were racing the Hatchback as 4x4 models!

Did Cox get that car from abroad? The works BTCC team didn't run a hatchback till 96 if I remember ?

I think someone's earlier point that it depends when you started following Touring Cars, I was during the ST era and in the recent years I've been more drawn towards the likes of the MG ZS's and Lexus IS200's competing in the BTCC. But I can appreciate the championship has a vast history, and that is what everyone has got to remember, ie it was once won by a Mini!

[redshoes]

Cleland's 1989 Cavalier was originally 4WD but converted to FWD after 2 races. The rules at the time allowed a 4WD base model to run in any configuration - 4WD, FWD or RWD. I believe the RWD car was also later converted to FWD.

Originally Posted by touringlegend

Did Cox get that car from abroad? The works BTCC team didn't run a hatchback till 96 if I remember ?

From memory it came from Wolf Racing in Germany, but don't remember the details.