Porsche withdraws LMP from PLM

[NJDMONEY]

Originally Posted by tblincoe

You especially NJDMONEY are particularly out of line with your last comments in which Fogelhund did nothing to ellicit such a response from you. You probably don't post in this forum because you can't have civil discussions without making things personal.

How civil can it be when he's propagating three year old rumors that GARRA employees are cheerleading the series themselves, through multiple screennames, on the GARRA message board? A rumor that was started, coincidentally enough, on the IMSA board.

[XJR14/WSC95]

I think that billnchristy and NJDMONEY are missing the point in regards to the importance that ALMS/GTP (IMSA), LMES, and WSC fans put on the appearance and blistering performance of the cars. Cars that when viewed in the flesh while they are static is equally as enjoyable as when they are thundering, screaming, or whooshing past at 200mph

Historically sports cars have been dominated by only one or two manufactures at a time and that’s the way it will probably remain. But without true sports car championships and the Le Mans 24 we would have never seen such beautiful inspiring cars from manufactures. If it is close racing that you crave you can’t go past formula ford or BTC. Shore ALMS fans get disappointed when a team leaves the ALMS to race a DP because that means there is one less car to drool over. The old saying different stokes for different blokes applies when debating the pros and cons of ALMS and GA.

I will be going to the USA to visit family and be attending the finale round of the ALMS at Laguna Sacca. It will be only my second ALMS experience after attending the fabulous Race of 1000 Years it Adelaide in 2000, so fingers crossed the Porsche attends. I hope there withdrawal from PLM has something to do with reliability concerns in such a long race, but are more confident in the 2 hr and 45 min format.

[Bentley03]

Trying to catch up on everything I've missed. Now, what was this thread about.......oh yes, the race debut of the RS Spyder has been delayed. Shame.......

[JAG]

Originally Posted by XJR14/WSC95

I think that billnchristy and NJDMONEY are missing the point in regards to the importance that ALMS/GTP (IMSA), LMES, and WSC fans put on the appearance and blistering performance of the cars. Cars that when viewed in the flesh while they are static is equally as enjoyable as when they are thundering, screaming, or whooshing past at 200mph
.

The unique selling point of sportscar raing is fast, exciting, sexy cars.

If you don't have that, quite frankly, who cares?

May as well watch F3!

Writing off the ALMS in 2005, when we know full well 2006 is make or break, is premature.

I'll repeat what I said in another thread:-

I think I'm going to sit back for a few months and see what pans out in the ALMS.

I believe there is demand in the US for such a series, and I've heard of many positive developments for 2006.

These are not phantom cars but real, genuine interest.

If they come off the ALMS will be fine, if not I see little future for the ALMS.

The only option would be to involve Sebring, PLM, Laguna for example into the LMES schedule in some shape or form.

I do watch GA, but consider it more of an oddity as I did with Trans Am and IMSA GTO a few years back, certainly not a replacement for the ALMS

[billnchristy]

1-180 mph from a standing start in a mile is fast enough. 3.9 sec 0-60 would have you wolf whistling and chest pounding.-recent R&T test of riley provides these numbers.

2-I have never seen a P1, LMP900 or whatever you want to call them do 200mph. Save Road America and Atlanta, and maybe Daytona, you arent going to hit 200 in the US. P1s do about 150 at LRP...if you want to see cars do 200+ these days watch an oval race.

3-You mean 2 affiliated companies are sharing resourses? Say it ain't so? How else are you going to build something from nothing? Don't you think GT3 Cup teams aspire to run GT2? Unfortunately ask almost any road racer in the US if he would like to run NASCAR and he will say yes...and why not when you can make 70k for running 1 lap??

[billnchristy]

Oh lastly I am faulted for not understanding the allure of the cars. I do understand, or at least did. My wife and I travelled a combined 12hrs to see the DC event, she was heavily pregnant and stood all day in 90+ degree heat to watch these cars without even a single complaint. WE LOVE SPORTSCAR RACING.

But i am sorry, 20 cars going by do not thunder, they do not move the earth and they do not move me.

Standing at the starting line at WGI with 46 cars rolling past, making quite a good racket of their own if you havent been there to hear makes my arm hair stand on end, my chest pound and all the good stuff ALMS cars used to do when there were a dozen P1s...

Im sorry the series is falling apart and my interest is waning with it...again, my choice. I dont try to get you to like Grand Am...just stop blindly beating on it.

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally Posted by billnchristy

Im sorry the series is falling apart and my interest is waning with it...again, my choice. I dont try to get you to like Grand Am...just stop blindly beating on it.

The series isnt falling apart though, Risi will soon have a 2nd MC12 on the ALMS grid and Porsche are coming into the series with a works LMP 2 entry and in 2006 Audi will no doubt be back in the ALMS as a works/works supported team with the R10, the hybrid LMP 1's that are running in the LMES this year will be redundant in the LMES after 2005 and a few are bound to filter into the ALMS for 2006 IMO, who will run the cars? Perhaps aspiring GT2 teams that want to make the move up to LMP racing. Im expecting anything from 26-30 cars for the ALMS in 2006.

[LouisTheShark]

A class designed for privateers, a car designed to be campaigned by privateers, being held back for two races by a rule designed to help privateers.

That is the irony and problem of the ALMS. The management has no plan, it is always working for today, not tomorrow. When the MC12 was announced, it was with the explicit caviat that Maserati would build an ACO legal car later in the year. But we now know this won't happen.

The ALMS begged Porsche to build this car because they realized they needed a reliable chassis/engine combination that would be supported by a U.S. based entity. Yet they allowed Porsche to create a situation that would make the car an exclusive "factory" program for 2006 and allowed them to select a team that has no stake in the ALMS. As a matter of fact, Penske is a stock holder in Grand Am. Penske only cares that he will get his increased allotment of Porsche cars to sell in his dealerships. Now there are several ALMS Porsche GT teams wondering about their future in the ALMS because their loyalty to the series and the brand have been diminished. If the "demand" that the ALMS sold to Porsche among the GT teams is drying up, how much and how long is Porsche N.A. going to fund this program?

I have said for a long time the ALMS is a series based on a house of cards. You have to build a solid foundation and that foundation has to include privateers. When privateers leave because they feel they cannot run a competitive package in a series, it will never work.

IMO, the ALMS needs to have a sitdown with Porsche about the LMP program and discuss their exclusive deal with Penske. I think if they do not do this, the Porsche LMP2 may just become another one year wonder that may be aborted before season end.

[tblincoe]

Originally Posted by billnchristy

1-180 mph from a standing start in a mile is fast enough. 3.9 sec 0-60 would have you wolf whistling and chest pounding.-recent R&T test of riley provides these numbers.

2-I have never seen a P1, LMP900 or whatever you want to call them do 200mph. Save Road America and Atlanta, and maybe Daytona, you arent going to hit 200 in the US. P1s do about 150 at LRP...if you want to see cars do 200+ these days watch an oval race.

3-You mean 2 affiliated companies are sharing resourses? Say it ain't so? How else are you going to build something from nothing? Don't you think GT3 Cup teams aspire to run GT2? Unfortunately ask almost any road racer in the US if he would like to run NASCAR and he will say yes...and why not when you can make 70k for running 1 lap??

3 - 2 affiliated companies? Its one 'company', and that 'company' is one of the most controlling and monopoly-driven organizations in the sporting world. If you would compare the future I outlined to the difference between GT3 and GT2 then I think its clear where you lie. You don't mind having a total 'nascarization' of "sportscar" racing here in the United States; that might be fine with you but its not for me. To each his own I guess...

[TheNewBob]

Originally Posted by billnchristy

But i am sorry, 20 cars going by do not thunder, they do not move the earth and they do not move me.

Standing at the starting line at WGI with 46 cars rolling past, making quite a good racket of their own if you havent been there to hear makes my arm hair stand on end, my chest pound and all the good stuff ALMS cars used to do when there were a dozen P1s...

I've never been to an ALMS race but I can tell you having seen FIA GT grid numbers falling that still, a grid of 25 cars or sometimes less can still leave you awestruck - I've never seen a GA race properly either, but first impressions mean a lot and I happen to agree that the cars are really ugly, and having seen and heard of some pretty damn close sportscar races in the past couple of years anyway, then the close racing claim from GA doesn't do a lot for me as a neutral.

It's entirely down to what suits a person - some people may like the look of the DP's, some people may prefer GARRA to ALMS, but some people prefer it the other way around too. I for one would get thousands of times more pleasure from having a GT1 Corvette rumble by at 150mph closely followed by the LMP2 Mazda rotary screaming it's head off. They look better, having seen one or two vid clips from the internet I'd say they sound better, and with some of the close racing going on in the ACO-ruled world (like Silverstone LMES, Monza FIA-GT and some of the Champion vs Dyson battles) then my personal needs don't require the likes of some ugly DP cars. A 2 or 3 car battle is just as entertaining as a 10-car battle if the racing is good enough.

However, having seen the absolutely foul idea on this thread of replying PERSONALLY to people rather than talking on and about the topic in hand, I must say again it's merely a personal preference. It's not wrong, and it's not me being ignorant or stupid. It's what I prefer to see the most.

Now, can we please move on to the actual topic in question? I'd very much be interested to know if the Porsche LMP2 is going to attend any races this year?

[JAG]

Originally Posted by billnchristy

1-180 mph from a standing start in a mile is fast enough. 3.9 sec 0-60 would have you wolf whistling and chest pounding.-recent R&T test of riley provides these numbers.

2-I have never seen a P1, LMP900 or whatever you want to call them do 200mph. Save Road America and Atlanta, and maybe Daytona, you arent going to hit 200 in the US. P1s do about 150 at LRP...if you want to see cars do 200+ these days watch an oval race.

3-You mean 2 affiliated companies are sharing resourses? Say it ain't so? How else are you going to build something from nothing? Don't you think GT3 Cup teams aspire to run GT2? Unfortunately ask almost any road racer in the US if he would like to run NASCAR and he will say yes...and why not when you can make 70k for running 1 lap??

The allure of an LMP is not the top speed, but being able outbreak a GT1 car and drive around them on a high speed corner, with ease.

Performance figures for any competition cars are impressive when compared to everyday cars, but on track it is quite clear which formulas provide the wow factor.

'1-180 mph from a standing start in a mile is fast enough. '

With all due respect, this is the NASCAR mentailtiy that really grates. Cars are never quick enough. They should always be quicker, more powerful, you name it. Thats what drives top level motorsport, whether its F1, Le Mans, DTM, WRC, JGTC...........

40 DPs would be quite a spectacle, but then so would 40 Speed GT cars.

Your never going to convert enthusiasts brought up on 917s, 935s, GTPs, LMPs/GT1s to take more than a passing interest in DP's. I watch British GTs but would be horrified if GT2 became the number one Le Mans class.

Some GA fans seems be relishing the prospect of the ALMS going tits up.

Why?

Is it because they know the product on offer, as a whole, is superior to GA?

This year the series is at an all time low, but is still able to draw in the fans.

It is folly to write off any series when its clear for all to see an upwards cycle is on the cards from 2006.

With guaranteed new entries from Porsche and Aston, and solid interest elsewere how can you possibly right off the series?

I would also challenge the statement that the ALMS is built like a stack of cards. The series has the backing of the ACO which gives the series a solid foundation with literally hundreds of cars around the world buillt, or at least easily convertable to their regs.

The aLMS is already down to its hardcore teams, thats the series' foundation. Add works teams and the likes of the prospective Zytek entries and your already looking at the 30 car mark.

I can't see any reason why a sportscar fan would wish to see the ALMS fail. It is the ultimate expression of US sportscar racing.

I am all for a succesful GA, but not at the expense of the ALMS.

[billnchristy]

We have been told of this upswing for years. Now all I hear are departures.

All these guaranteed cars are not guaranteed...I have not seen a single thing saying Aston is definitely comitted to ALMS.

As for the attendance...if it is so great, why are they losing 2 tracks due to attendance issues? Sears point for sure and the ALMS crowd at LRP in 05 was MUCH less than 04...what the fans didnt come out because the track was too bumpy??

As for the Porsche, the main topic of this discussion. If the reason they don't want to play is because of the rules maybe that is the big issue. ALMS can't even build its own grids because their rules won't allow it.

New cars and new teams dont mean a think until the engine is fired up and the car is on track.

How many times has that happened this year??

We have gone from a 60+ grid at Sebring to 30 something. Peitit used to get 38-48 cars. We will be lucky to see 28.

These are facts.

Lastly...if sports cars and all other forms of racing mean to go faster, than you must hate everything because every series is slowing their cars down!

NASCAR-restrictor plate, IRL-detuned to the tune of 20 or so mph, ALMS Restrictors, F1-different engines/less HP.

Is it all fake then?? I guess F1 and IRL cars arent real open wheel cars, and every--EVERY ALMS car has a restrictor...must be a joke too!

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by billnchristy

We have been told of this upswing for years. Now all I hear are departures.

All these guaranteed cars are not guaranteed...I have not seen a single thing saying Aston is definitely comitted to ALMS.

One Aston has been purchased by an existing ALMS team. At minimum, there will be one Aston.

As for the attendance...if it is so great, why are they losing 2 tracks due to attendance issues? Sears point for sure and the ALMS crowd at LRP in 05 was MUCH less than 04...what the fans didnt come out because the track was too bumpy??

Attendance at both events was poor. But, the future of the race at LRP has NOTHING to do with attendance, and everything to do with LRP meeting (or not) the upgrades the series feels are needed. Sears Point is not done as of yet, and negotiations are on going.

As for the Porsche, the main topic of this discussion. If the reason they don't want to play is because of the rules maybe that is the big issue.

I'm assuming you are referring to testing rules. Yes, bit of an unexpected cost their isn't it?

ALMS can't even build its own grids because their rules won't allow it.

I don't believe that the ACO rules are problematic. I think they are a great starting point. I think what is missing possibly is their interpretation, or perhaps some clauses in the IMSA code to make this work. Such things as incentives for factories to supply cars to privateers. As one person mentioned, make manufacturer titles based upon the results of the top three of that marque, with only one factory entry counting. Or provide weight penalties to manufacturers who don't supply a minimum number of chassis.

While this isn't cheap, I don't think ultimately "cost" is the issue, as much as the cost to run for second (guaranteed).

[FIRE]

Isn't this topic about Porsche and their withdraw from PLM?
Maybe it's a good idea to create one topic for ALMS vs Grand-Am bashing.

[JAG]

'We have been told of this upswing for years. Now all I hear are departures.'

And all of this talk has been focused around the 2004 LMP regs.

Due to their late introduction, or rather the lack of new chassis, this upswing has been delayed.

BTW, Dave Richards has stated that Prodrive will run Works Astons if no ALMS customer comes forward.

'Lastly...if sports cars and all other forms of racing mean to go faster, than you must hate everything because every series is slowing their cars down!'

But thats always been the case. Peg 'em back and watch 'em gain back the speed through technology, innovation and development.

[awegrzyn]

tblincoe,

You either do not read what I write or you do not understand it. When did I claim your email was hostile? When did I claim I have inside information regarding the imminent demise of the ALMS? Do not put words in my mouth. As far as you posting here the message you sent to me via email, I will not comment.

And BTW this forum has moderators. My posts were deleted here twice.

[Bentley03]

I don't think this has been posted elsewhere, apologies if it has!

Courtesy of DSC!!

Penske completed two days testing at Road Atlanta this week. 47 (uniformed) Penske staff in attendance, and just one ALMS official. Lap times in the region of Intersport's 1:12.678 pole last spring were reported. Testing apparently ran without any problems until the cooling down lap of the final session when it 'blew the transmission'. This sounds like the continuation of a recurring problem which has delayed the Spyder's racing debut!

[jhansen]

Found this link on the ALMS forums.

http://www22.porsche.com/all/motorsp...pyder/pcna.asp

Once the page is loaded click "start" in the lower right hand corner. You'll find a picture of the revised RS Spyder testing at Road Atlanta. And the following quote can be found:

"Engineers, drivers and race team confirm the basic concept and look forward optimistically to the debut at Laguna Seca."

Let's hope...

[Try Hard]

Not sure if this completely the correct thread for this but....
Only difference I can see on the "Road Atlanta" Spyder (looking past the non-painted front nose) is that the raised central section of the car is different, with there being a pronounced lip to the front edge, and more of a gentle slope to the edges.
Dive planes appear to more steeply angled on the RA version too, with the loss of the lower endplate allowing them to be mounted lower.



Also, on that link jhansen has posted, if you click on development and testing, and then estoril, there is a small video of the car on track.

Regards
Ed

[gwyllion]

See http://www.mulsannescorner.com/news.html for new pictures and some analysis of differences with previous version.