[Rumours] Porsche & Volkswagen Group considering entering F1

[Adam43]

I’m sure it makes initial conversations, if they happen, will be easier. And always nice to deal with someone you know and trust.

In the end the deal will be done if it makes sense to both.

[chillibowl]

no doubt the technical partnerships/future fuels will be how they justify their decision to enter (if they enter) but i suspect ,cynically i suppose, that they have to enter because of F1's new found popularity on both social media platforms and through an abundance of shows and docs on the streaming services.

and when you combine lower costs with increasing online presence and reach, one wonders what is taking them so long to join up?

[chunterer]

Porsche only ever go all in if they really believe can win. It's pretty much the same for Audi. VW as a brand is arguably not as hellbent on that.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Porsche only ever go all in if they really believe can win.

They've had so many chances to enter F1 and build a top team. Even Toyota, the sensible family car and pickup brand, got there before they did again!

If Porsche are so confident of their engineering excellence -- an excellence (according to Porsche enthusiasts) that constantly outengineers lesser, inferior, sportscars from Ferrari, McLaren, Honda, Alpine, Alfa Romeo, or Mercedes, why not upon quitting LMP simply enter F1?!

[Strangely, Porsche enthusiasts seem oddly quiet on how Alpine, Ferrari and even Honda sportscars have used double-wishbone suspension for over 30 years, yet the Porsche 911 or Cayman? Not so much!]

[Adam43]

Good cars though Although I’d never consider a car without double-wishbone suspension. Imagine having to live with that.

I think a lot of the cost, benefit, history, customers, how the series have developed and are run, and other things are lost in that little Porsche bash.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

[Strangely, Porsche enthusiasts seem oddly quiet on how Alpine, Ferrari and even Honda sportscars have used double-wishbone suspension for over 30 years, yet the Porsche 911 or Cayman? Not so much!]

Dunno why that seems strange to you. I have no idea what double wishbone suspension is or which cars have it and which don’t, but I nevertheless have nothing but awe for Porsche’s achievements in sportscar racing over the last 50 years. It’s baffling to me that they would have any interest in F1. Mind you I still think Ferrari made a mistake when the dropped sportscar racing to focus on F1.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

It’s baffling to me that they would have any interest in F1. Mind you I still think Ferrari made a mistake when the dropped sportscar racing to focus on F1.

Yup.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I think a lot of the cost, benefit, history, customers, how the series have developed and are run, and other things are lost in that little Porsche bash.

Not at all. Their engineering is impressive, that's why they could build a car with the engine in the right place and decent suspension if they wanted --- just like a Lotus Evora.

You don't have to look far on the Porsche owner's forums to see Cayman owners' complain about the camber problems of their strut suspension. It's not ideal.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

I have no idea what double wishbone suspension is or which cars have it and which don’t

It's in plain sight?




It's just weird how Porsche engineers are so stubborn. They are so very German!

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

I nevertheless have nothing but awe for Porsche’s achievements in sportscar racing over the last 50 years.

All those prototype or Group C or GT1 sportscars they used in racing have the engine in the middle and double wishbone suspension.

Strut (i.e., there is no upper control arm) is fine, it's used on most cheap economy cars, but it has serious geometry problems compared to the standard sportscar or racing car layout of unequal-length double wishbone.

It's only through stubbornness that Porsche would use strut on 911 and Cayman, and finally relent and put a double wishbone front on the single 911 GT3 variant only after decades, while the Lotus and Ferrari sportscars have had it all along (though the 911 GT3 still has the engine in the wrong place due to stubbornness, and/or the Cayman GT4 is detuned to make sure it is slower despite having the engine in the proper place!).

The Lotus Evora is typical of a standard sportscar:


[An F1 car has the spring inboard, operated by a pushrod and a rocker.]

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Interesting tech stuff about suspensions

Thanks!

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

If Porsche are so confident of their engineering excellence -- an excellence (according to Porsche enthusiasts) that constantly outengineers lesser, inferior, sportscars from Ferrari, McLaren, Honda, Alpine, Alfa Romeo, or Mercedes, why not upon quitting LMP simply enter F1?!

Because they pulled out of LMP to join FE, which was insane but seemed to make sense to someone at the time. And because LMP had become too expensive, which suggests a rather lower bar for costs than F1 can offer. I think you knew all that already though .

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Not at all. Their engineering is impressive, that's why they could build a car with the engine in the right place and decent suspension if they wanted --- just like a Lotus Evora.

You don't have to look far on the Porsche owner's forums to see Cayman owners' complain about the camber problems of their strut suspension. It's not ideal.

F1 (and Motorsport) for manufacturers is primarily for marketing. So the cost and benefit is the main consideration, not the engineering. The cost of F1 seems to be reducing and the benefit, perhaps with the increase in different media, seems to be looked upon favorable.

When any company, including Porsche, look at entering the sport they will review what they put in v. what they get out. The choice of whole team v. engine supply (on a group basis?) will be considered. Maybe the engine gives you most of what you need for a fraction of the cost.

So the engineering of the struts of a Cayman are a million miles away from this. And only of concern to a handful of people on Internet forums hence my comment of missing the important parts.

If you want even better Porsche engineering on the internet discussion search for IMS bearings on catastrophic engine failures. Always fun - if you have the wrong one NEVER DRIVE YOUR CAR AGAIN! and other such comedyness. Or just look up advice on how to change the oil on a 911.

As for building a car with the engine in the “right place”, all with the same suspension, etc... Let’s hope not. The automotive world has too much homogeneity to it already.

Although ironically, of course, the homogeneity is there in F1.

[crmalcolm]

According to Zak Brown, the likely destination is Red Bull under a Porsche name.

'The Volkswagen Group is considering whether to make an F1 entry but Brown rejected claims that McLaren had agreed a deal with the German giant.

Instead, he said he believed VW's Porsche brand would enter F1 in partnership with Red Bull.

"I'm hearing they are going to do something with Red Bull on the Porsche front," Brown said.

He said McLaren had spoken to VAG about F1 but said the team were committed to engine supplier Mercedes until the end of the current power-unit regulations in 2025.'

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

According to Zak Brown, the likely destination is Red Bull under a Porsche name.

'The Volkswagen Group is considering whether to make an F1 entry but Brown rejected claims that McLaren had agreed a deal with the German giant.

Instead, he said he believed VW's Porsche brand would enter F1 in partnership with Red Bull.

"I'm hearing they are going to do something with Red Bull on the Porsche front," Brown said.

He said McLaren had spoken to VAG about F1 but said the team were committed to engine supplier Mercedes until the end of the current power-unit regulations in 2025.'

It was always going to be Red Bull.The decision to go with any other team would have been completely irrational.I think it would have been up to them to convince Red Bull they can get the job done rather than the other way around.

[chillibowl]

i was hoping that they would bring their funding to an underfunded team and/or a buyout and enter as a full works team.

im simplifying of course, but rebadging and running a Honda engine feels a bit boring no? from a marketing and financial perspective its great of course.

its odd though, one can see them wanting to join up for the new rules but wouldnt they be better off staying out of the sport until then and developing an engine outside of F1 rules?

as a non participant, they are still invited to help shape the new rules, RB could still forward their agenda, and all the while they could rack up countless testing miles without any scrutiny.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

i was hoping that they would bring their funding to an underfunded team and/or a buyout and enter as a full works team.

im simplifying of course, but rebadging and running a Honda engine feels a bit boring no? from a marketing and financial perspective its great of course.

its odd though, one can see them wanting to join up for the new rules but wouldnt they be better off staying out of the sport until then and developing an engine outside of F1 rules?

as a non participant, they are still invited to help shape the new rules, RB could still forward their agenda, and all the while they could rack up countless testing miles without any scrutiny.

Are you taking the Porsche+Red Bull match up talk to mean that this will happen soon? And that they will use the Honda engine, but with a Porsche badge?

if VAG enters F1, it will not happen until the 2025 season. I mean, they may announce they plan to participate at any moment, but they will not enter before then. If they do determine a partnership prior to then (likely) they might get involved in some sponsorship between now an then. But they are not going to run any rebadged engines as part of the current engine spec.

All of the recent negotiations are around the 2025 engine specification. So they are ensuring they are happy with those new specifications so they can spend the time between now and then engineering to that new spec.

Red Bull will run the frozen Honda engine until the end of the current engine spec (2024 season). Red Bull would currently be either planning a new engine partnership (such as one of the VAG brands) or gearing up to design their own. They will ideally want to get this settled ASAP because if they need to do it inhouse, they need to start on that now. Preferably they will want to have someone like VAG use Red Bull as their "works" team. I expect VAG will jump in initially as an engine supplier first. If there is an opportunistic option to purchase one or more teams (someone is cheap), they might do so if the price is right. But I suspect they would prefer to enter in a phased approach (engine supplier first, then if that goes well, then as a full team) It also continues to make sense to buy an existing team vs. start a new one from scratch.

Richard

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Are you taking the Porsche+Red Bull match up talk to mean that this will happen soon? And that they will use the Honda engine, but with a Porsche badge?

yes...i guess i am unclear about their possible time line.

actually to be honest, still a bit unclear about when the new engines will be introduced/raced. have seen both 2025 and 2026.

[P38 in workshop]

I'm amazed that their pioneering work with Honda hasn't put them off being pioneers with a new engine partner.Particularly one that did such a remarkable job with Footwork/Arrows.

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

I'm amazed that their pioneering work with Honda hasn't put them off being pioneers with a new engine partner.Particularly one that did such a remarkable job with Footwork/Arrows.

I would think a better parallel might be Porsche with McLaren.Remember they have 3 years to work on this uninterrupted with currently supplying a team.I don’t know how much carry over will exist between current PU’s and the new ones but Red Bull now owning their current engine technology means they can give all of that to Porsche to help them with development.
Their work with Honda worked out ok from memory.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by Alan52

It was always going to be Red Bull.The decision to go with any other team would have been completely irrational.I think it would have been up to them to convince Red Bull they can get the job done rather than the other way around.

The only other option would have been McLaren, they are using Merc gear now but I'm sure they have much higher hopes than a customer team.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

actually to be honest, still a bit unclear about when the new engines will be introduced/raced. have seen both 2025 and 2026.

Same here. I think the 2021 to 2022 delay of regulations also pushed back the length of the usage of the current engine spec as well. I sometimes read it as 2025 and others as 2026. Probably 2026 is when the new spec comes into play?

Originally Posted by Alan52

I don’t know how much carry over will exist between current PU’s and the new ones but Red Bull now owning their current engine technology means they can give all of that to Porsche to help them with development.

It may not be super common knowledge, but while no doubt some ideas and concepts from the Honda PU may find it's way to VAG engineers via Red Bull, Red Bull doesn't "own" the IP for the Honda PU. They have a license to use it and no doubt Honda has limited that to the duration of the remainder of this engine spec. Only Honda (and any other IP holders) control transfer or licensing of IP to someone such as Porsche. Even if someone was to try to create a clone of the Honda PU, there is always much more to the engine than just physical dimensions of combustion chambers, etc. There is proprietary coatings, platings, software, etc. that would be delivered to Red Bull as complete products (i.e. "here are your pistons, already plated") with Red Bull not knowing "how" the proprietary process works.

Here is a very good article that talks about the relationship between Honda and Red Bull.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/...ren-fabrik-f1/
(Google translate from German to English)

Red Bull did not buy the intellectual property of the Japanese, but acquired the right to use it. This is also due to the fact that part of the IP also includes the development of Honda partner Ilmor. And it wasn't for sale. Since the rights remain with Honda, it is also the task of the Japanese to assemble and maintain the product on behalf of third parties.

The article also talks about Red Bull configuring their engine department to potentially hook up with a manufacture (such as Porsche). And as a number of articles have mentioned, Red Bull will remain deeply in bed with Honda through the duration of the usage of this power unit. It's not like Honda just packed up everything to build the power units and sent it to Red Bull.

Richard

[E.B]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

yes...i guess i am unclear about their possible time line.

actually to be honest, still a bit unclear about when the new engines will be introduced/raced. have seen both 2025 and 2026.

It was originally 2025 but is now officially taking place for 2026. Cant remember if the reasons for the delayed intro was Covid related or more a we need time to finalise what we want type delays.

Either way it is 2026.

[S griffin]

McLaren it seems are interested in going with Audi

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/mc...ision/7413137/

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

I'm amazed that their pioneering work with Honda hasn't put them off being pioneers with a new engine partner.Particularly one that did such a remarkable job with Footwork/Arrows.

Or the current power units could simply be re-badged with another manufacturer name, now that RB is doing its own. Reasonable units already and then manufacturer expertise could be added once it shows to be an improvement.

[Matador]

I guess it's finally confirmed?

Porsche and Audi have decided to enter Formula 1 in 2026, according to the CEO of the Volkswagen Group.
Last month a meeting of the VW Group’s supervisory board concluded without a final decision on whether Porsche and Audi would commit to an F1 project in 2026.
However, it did “confirm plans” for both entries, subject to a successful final phase of its evaluation.

[crmalcolm]

Seems to be closer - "VW says that a final decision has not been made because the 2026 technical regulations have not been agreed upon"

https://the-race.com/formula-1/red-b...if-vw-commits/