2013 IndyCar schedule

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by marcostraz

It's not a personal choice from Ind Car to not race at Raod America or Phoenix or Laguna Seca etc.etc...it's an economical decision...

PS: IndyCar cannot race in a circuit that already have a F1 race in its schedule due to an expressed willingness of Ecclestone...

That did apply to CART. I doubt it applies to Indycar. Even with CART, Montreal hosted both CART and F1 in the one year.

It's that noone can afford them, Indycar usually pulling in only pitiable crowds.

[Yannick]

Originally Posted by IndyDonut

I'm a rookie on this forum, and I have to say, I take quite a bit of offense with the 2013 schedule. It is, in my opinion, a complete failure. IndyCar has somehow managed to be about the only racing series (that races on road courses) on Earth to not book a date at Austin. They try and fix the schedule by giving us double-headers at three street circuits. Yes, give us twice the no-passing, full-course-yellows-every-5-minutes action.

Honestly, how they managed to get a schedule this bad is beyond me. No Road America, no Watkins Glen, no CoTA, no Montreal, no Mont-Tremblant, no Laguna Seca, and they still run on a street circuit in São Paulo when there's an FIA Grade 1 circuit across town. We're left with 7 street circuits, 6 ovals and 3 proper circuits. That means 13 tracks where the slightest incident (let's be honest, IndyCar doesn't have the best talent on Earth) leads to the race slowing down for 5+ minutes. We all of course know that's what new fans want to see: cars driving slowly behind a street car with blinkers.

Let's try this for 2014: beg the FIA on knees if necessary and get into Autódromo José Carlos Pace in São Paulo. Keep the Ovals down to Fontana, Indy and Pocono. For diversity, try and keep Milwaukee and get some actual road courses in there. There is no excuse to not have Road America, Watkins Glen, Austin and Laguna Seca on the schedule. Toronto is probably on its way out as it is, so get to work on Montreal and Mont-Tremblant to take its place. As much of a slow land yacht the DW12 is, it's most likely too fast for Mosport and its lack of runoff areas. Maybe give Portland a ring, see if they're available.

Welcome to the board. It's great to see some new people. I agree that the double-headers in the new schedule are not a good choice. But what else could they have done in the short term to retain 2 races on Canadian soil after the departure of Edmonton? Double-Houston and Doubelle Isle is another matter entirely, though. I don't quite understand why they scheduled those, especially given that in the one recent double-header at Texas 2 years ago, everybody did their best to conserve their car for the 2nd heat whilst running the 1st heat and said 1st heat was essentially a boring race. On a twisty street circuit, the field might either be very small in the 2nd heat or the 1st heat might be a procession. Here's hoping they drop the doubleheader concept again for 2014.

I disagree with all the negativity that gets thrown at the Toronto event on this board. Whenever I watched the race on a stream or back in the 90s, on TV, it's been an exciting race. I guess it's a question of which drivers you like if you side for or against Toronto since oval specialists surely don't like the track ;-)

Anyhow, I agree with you on Elkhart Lake, Watkins Glen and Austin being prime candidates for the calendar. Yet, I'm afraid Laguna Seca would not be up to it because it probably would require a safety upgrade.

For the ovals, I'm glad Milwaukee is in, but more are necessary for the desired "parity". They need to do a test at Phoenix to find out which aero restrictions are necessary to prevent pack racing. They should also look into making a comeback at Sparta, Kentucky. And the legacy of the Randy Bernard era will most likely depend on how the Pocono race turns out to be. It's good that Fontana worked, selling excecutive suites.
And the new regime needs to keep the aero restrictions for Texas. A 2nd attempt at Loudon New Hampshire might be worth it, too, but with a different promoter.

For the road courses, yes, I agree, Portland would be a nice addition. I guess the layout change at Sonoma worked as intended, but Mid-Ohio is still not wide enough. So I'd rather not even consider Tremblant. For the 2nd Canadian event, Montreal would probably be the best, but I have a fond memory of watching a Vancouver race on TV, too.

Yes, it does not make any sense economically to build the Sambodrome Circuit every year in a town that has got a great permanent racing facility in Interlagos. They should go there. Even F1 promoters at Valencia, the only town in the world with 2 circuits rated as high as FIA 1-T) have now come to their senses and decided to build their street circuit only every 2 years.

As far as the non-permanent circuits are concerned, with the demise of the Edmonton event, Indycar might want to look at other airport circuits. Sebring, at which they are regularly doing winter testing might be a good idea since they already got a foot in the door because of that.
The Australians sure would welcome them back for Surfers Paradise. I still shake my head at the fact they let this one go. St Pete is now almost a classic and should be kept.

But how about picking up the debris of the attempted Formula 1 race in New Jersey? A revival of the Meadowlands Grand Prix track there would even be good for "parity" as it could count for both street and oval standings. I know it's a hilarious idea, but I guess we're all thinking outside of the box here (the box being the Indianapolis Motor Speedway for that matter ;-)

A while back, somebody even suggested an Argentinian race but international excursions are out of the question as long as the TV or online stream coverage is so bad. The TV coverage issue needs to be fixed before way before the calendar issue because that strengthens IndyCar's position in negotiations with the circuits and sponsors.

As long as I cannot watch it because there is no coverage, I should not worry about IndyCar either and decide to do other things.

So welcome to the board again and don't let the Crapwagoners steal your good mood.

[mountainstar]

It's funny when people say the irl can look at this, look at that and then they role out a dream schedule or events that have no basis in reality because the finances don't add up. That is why the irl is at second class venues.

You don't think that management has not "looked at" all of these different tracks?

None of these dream schedules happen because the irl cannot run financially viable events.

[NaBUru38]

Austin will have five major weekends: Grand-Am, V8 Supercars / SCCA World Challenge, ALMS / World Endurance Championship, MotoGP, and Formula 1. It's hard to sell tickets to all of them, and it's hard to find the right spots in the schedule. IndyCar would love to run with V8 Supercars or the merged North American sports car series. Next year they may find a shared weekend.

[IndyDonut]

New Jersey would be nice, but that circuit won't be ready until 2014 at the earliest. They'll also likely not allow anything but 1 weekend for Formula 1 for that event. The NYC metropolitan area isn't too in love with street closures for some car race. We don't even want street closures for street re-pavement here.

[Purist]

On a historical note, temporary circuits equaled road courses in CART in 1984-85, and became greater in number from 1986 onward. For 1984-2001, Portland, Mid Ohio, Road America, and Laguna Seca were the only permanent road courses used by CART.

Of course, a significant part of the issue is that Barber and Sears Point don't necessarily make for the best racing. The new car seems to have saved Barber though, at least for now.

As for Sears Point, it NEEDS to be run in the original, 2.52-mile layout. The extended (but still not full length) hairpin didn't do a whole lot. Also, with that chicane before Turn 10, you don't have enough distance in the straight to make up for the stretch you get between the cars as they accelerate off that slow corner. Passing still generally required a mistake from the leading driver, and/or one driver to be on relatively cold tires.

Mid Ohio isn't the problem, and the track is wide enough; it's the same bloody width as any of the older North American road courses are for the majorities of their laps. That includes tracks such as Road America, Watkins Glen, Mosport Park, Sears Point, Laguna Seca, as well as a number of others. Some of the old road course have had their start/finish stretches widened, like Watkins Glen, but that's about it. I haven't really seen any three-wide dives into Turns 2 or 4 at Mid Ohio for the Indy Cars at all lately, which might demonstrate somewhat the idea that more width would help.

(If blocking is that much o a problem, well, Michael Schumacher has shown that you can block very effectively on a 50-foot-wide track, and the older American road courses are generally 30ft wide. Therefore, that sort of a drastic change isn't going to work, and is NOT the least bit practical either.)

I should also mention that the 2012 Mid Ohio race was a fuel mileage race. Right away, that can kill a race, no matter how good the track is. Considering the passing that did go on behind the leaders, I REALLY don't think Mid Ohio is the problem. I would also say the same regarding St. Petersburg, in terms of the track and passing happening behind the leaders.

[Purist]

Detroit will be MUCH better with them using the long course in 2013. Belle Isle was another race where there was a strong fuel mileage element in 2012, so again, the main part of the race up front wasn't so great. However, through the field there definitely WAS some passing at Detroit, and it got kind of wild at the front during that final sprint after the break. In other words, they CAN pass at Belle Isle too, as long as they are allowed to use the fuel needed to make it happen.

Guys, Mosport now actually may have equal, if not better, run-off situation than does Mont Tremblant. I think people might freak though, having the cars lapping that place in under a minute. Even so, I certainly would NOT mind seeing the open-wheelers back at either Mosport or Mont Tremblant, especially if they can run the original layouts. Both would put on very good races. Mosport is very exciting; but it could get a little too exciting when it comes to negotiating traffic.

The only way every other year at Interlagos makes sense for F1 is if they add an Argentine race to alternate with. As long as F1 is at Interlagos, IndyCar will NOT be allowed there; hell, Bernie tried to get Charlie Whiting to not approve the street circuit right from the off. I think the Montreal promoter has more latitude with Bernie, because of the utter lack of North American Grands Prix for so long; F1 knows they can't afford to just dump the continent entirely.

Toronto is a good street circuit. You get two pretty decent overtaking spots a lap: Turns 1 and 3. You also get a couple others than can have potentially: Turns 4 and 8.

I'm not big on the double-header concept; I'd rather see 19 completely different venues on the calendar. We'll just have to see how it goes. The one plus over the Texas experiment is that it's two races on two separate days, rather than two races in one evening.

[Purist]

Baltimore is a good street circuit, with 4-5 long(ish) "straights", and strong braking zones at the ends of all of them: Turns 1, 3, 4, 5, and 10/11/12. They just need to be able to get rid of that darn chicane on Pratt Street, and it will be excellent.

Houston could use a similar remedy on its front stretch, if you remember back to the 2006-07 races. If they can go without that chicane, and maybe go back to the quicker final turn like in 2006, Reliant Park should be quite decent as well, with two good overtaking zones (Turns 2 and 5), and a few others with some possibilities (Turns 3, 7, and 8).

As for airport circuits, they really just need Cleveland back. Sebring won't happen. The Indy Cars only test on the upper portion of the track. The full circuit, which uses all that old tarmac, would likely be too bumpy for these cars, especially given how much lighter they are than the sportscars.

I want to see a few more races at Austin before saying it's a good call for IndyCar. Also, I think we'd want the cars to have some more power, if they're going to go to a new, F1-built track.

Naturally, I think it would be GREAT to get back to Road America and Watkins Glen. Laguna Seca ought be just fine as well; it's safe enough for MotoGP, so IndyCar shouldn't be a concern compared to that. The real trouble is, I don't see them having both Sears Point and Laguna Seca on the calendar at the same time.

[IndyDonut]

Originally Posted by Purist

Detroit will be MUCH better with them using the long course in 2013. Belle Isle was another race where there was a strong fuel mileage element in 2012, so again, the main part of the race up front wasn't so great. However, through the field there definitely WAS some passing at Detroit, and it got kind of wild at the front during that final sprint after the break. In other words, they CAN pass at Belle Isle too, as long as they are allowed to use the fuel needed to make it happen.

Guys, Mosport now actually may have equal, if not better, run-off situation than does Mont Tremblant. I think people might freak though, having the cars lapping that place in under a minute. Even so, I certainly would NOT mind seeing the open-wheelers back at either Mosport or Mont Tremblant, especially if they can run the original layouts. Both would put on very good races. Mosport is very exciting; but it could get a little too exciting when it comes to negotiating traffic.

The only way every other year at Interlagos makes sense for F1 is if they add an Argentine race to alternate with. As long as F1 is at Interlagos, IndyCar will NOT be allowed there; hell, Bernie tried to get Charlie Whiting to not approve the street circuit right from the off. I think the Montreal promoter has more latitude with Bernie, because of the utter lack of North American Grands Prix for so long; F1 knows they can't afford to just dump the continent entirely.

Toronto is a good street circuit. You get two pretty decent overtaking spots a lap: Turns 1 and 3. You also get a couple others than can have potentially: Turns 4 and 8.

I'm not big on the double-header concept; I'd rather see 19 completely different venues on the calendar. We'll just have to see how it goes. The one plus over the Texas experiment is that it's two races on two separate days, rather than two races in one evening.

I think we all like Toronto, but the attendance might result in that race going. Mosport has corners that are a bit faster than Mont-Tremblant and its chicanes. I haven't seen the renovations, but I hope they added a ton of run-off space. The Landyacht12 is slow, but it isn't that slow.

[Purist]

Ron Fellows and his crew have done quite a bit of work at Mosport since they bought it. They've augmented track access, including a new tunnel. They haven't expanded most of the run-offs (hard to do anyway with those hillsides, and all the rain they get up there), though they have made noticeable refinements to some of them. The main place where they have added room is at Turn 9. The wall has been pushed back as much as was really possible with the paddock being back there, but it's something, and it also makes the pit entry more generous.

Giving rough estimates for the original circuit layouts (no chicanes or anything like that), I'd guess the Indy Cars could lap Mont Tremblant in the 1:13s (~130-mph), and Mosport in the 0:59s (~150-mph), in qualifying.

[IndyDonut]

I'd like to see them back at Mosport. I don't mind the sub-minute lap times either. Didn't mind with the shorter Long Beach configuration in the 90s, either.

[JohnSSC]

If I were more ambitious I would look up the threads were we have discussed the tracks to death, particularly Mont Tremblant. There are two big problems with Mont Tremblant and the first is the size of the paddock and access in. I have been there for smaller events that did attract large haulers and to say it was "difficult" would be a bit of an understatement. Further, I believe the owner likes the track just the way it is along with the mix of events that it now holds and would not be willing to make the "improvements" needed.

MS hits the nail right on the head here. The main problem with the schedule is that the Series is not viable enough to make track owners want to have a race weekend there. There ARE some great tracks out there (no one EVER mentions VIR???) but just because the track exists does not mean that it can support a race or even wants it...

[IndyDonut]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

If I were more ambitious I would look up the threads were we have discussed the tracks to death, particularly Mont Tremblant. There are two big problems with Mont Tremblant and the first is the size of the paddock and access in. I have been there for smaller events that did attract large haulers and to say it was "difficult" would be a bit of an understatement. Further, I believe the owner likes the track just the way it is along with the mix of events that it now holds and would not be willing to make the "improvements" needed.

MS hits the nail right on the head here. The main problem with the schedule is that the Series is not viable enough to make track owners want to have a race weekend there. There ARE some great tracks out there (no one EVER mentions VIR???) but just because the track exists does not mean that it can support a race or even wants it...

VIR's a great track. I can't imagine how much investment would be needed to bring that up to spec for even the LandYacht12 IndyCar. All run-offs are grass and it's a narrow track, too. Still, beautiful, isn't it?

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

That is why the irl is at second class venues.

Which are the current 2nd class venues?

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by IndyDonut

VIR's a great track. I can't imagine how much investment would be needed to bring that up to spec for even the LandYacht12 IndyCar. All run-offs are grass and it's a narrow track, too. Still, beautiful, isn't it?

It's a lovely facility but it's not suited at all for formula racing, other than FF or something. I don't think the owner would be keen on it either.

[IndyDonut]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

Which are the current 2nd class venues?

Sao Paolo, St. Petersburg, Baltimore, Reliant Park, and Belle Isle can all qualify. Basically the bumb-tastic street circuits (Long Beach has history, at least). Though honestly I'd really pick two from that list: Sao Paolo (because 1st class is the real circuit across town) and Belle Isle because the pavement there is a joke.

[Purist]

We'll see how Belle Isle is this year, particularly for the surface. They've been working on it for some time, and as I said, they'll be using the long course for 2013. That should make a HUGE difference in overtaking possibilities all by itself.

You know the deal with Sao Paulo. So, until F1 leaves Interlagos, it's the street circuit or nothing. Also, in case you were thinking of it, I don't know that there will be anything at all left of Jacarepagua when construction for the 2014 World Cup and the 2016 Summer Olympics is completed.

St. Petersburg was a victim of BAD television coverage in 2012. it's certainly good enough for overtaking, and it's not like there's a better, permanent option in Florida. There are places at Sebring that would probably make the drivers wish for the bumps of Baltimore or Reliant Park.

Speaking of Houston, it's been long enough that the place may have a substantially better surface than in 2007, just on the basis of regular maintenance. Also, as with Detroit, there may be some extra works going on there between now and the race weekend to improve course conditions.

I could rattle off some BAD temporary circuits, and trust me, NONE of the ones on the 2013 IndyCar calendar even come close to being THAT awful. (Just ask Nigel Mansell about Dallas in 1984, or Davy Jones about New Orleans in 1991.)

As for VIR, leave it alone for the sportscars. There are a few minor things I wouldn't mind seeing done at Virginia (just refinements really), but it's a great circuit as it is, and should be left as untouched as possible. (And please, VIR is wide enough. it's those various segments of esse bends, and perhaps those vast expanses of grass run-off as well, that just make it SEEM narrow.)

(JohnSSC, we know, but getting stuck where we are now doesn't help anything. Not to mention, if some amount of fantasizing will keep away a lot of frustration and possible depression about the situation, then it's absolutely worth it to step out of reality to an extent. We're NOT the ones running a website that's pretending that ChampCar is still alive and well, and running a championship season every year even now.)

[JagtechOhio]

^^ Pretty smooth though, with all the bull**** to fill in the pot holes.