2013 IndyCar schedule

[Purist]

I don't really know the validity of this thing, but I will say that a street circuit including a highway ramp is not unprecedented. The Durban street circuit used one. The old Detroit street circuit used something that seemed an awful lot like a highway ramp (you know, where the track crosses the highway in downtown, turns left, and then drops suddenly down this narrow section and curves right under a bridge).

At a more modest level, a lot of temporary circuits in Eastern Europe are based around highway interchanges.

[Purist]

I don't think IndyCar will be returning to Kansas Speedway anytime soon.

http://nascar.speedtv.com/article/cu...nascar-sprint/

[nickyf1]

Ugh, not another one of those...

Pretty soon, it's gonna be a big mobile track that they take around the country, because with all these similar tracks now, that's pretty much what they're doing.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Purist

I don't think IndyCar will be returning to Kansas Speedway anytime soon.

http://nascar.speedtv.com/article/cu...nascar-sprint/

I personally never cared for those cookie-cutter ovals, so not a bad move.

[Purist]

That aspect doesn't really matter if you run on a variety of the ovals within a given range.

Running Las Vegas, Chicagoland, and the reconfigured Kansas Speedway wouldn't be so interesting, nor would running Atlanta, Charlotte, and Texas. However, running Texas, Kentucky, and Homestead (if you could get rid of the pack racing by-and-large) would be reasonably interesting. Those three ovals have different widths, corner radii, banking, and tri-ovals from one another.

It's kind of silly lumping all the 1.5-milers together. CART ran at four good 1.0-mile ovals in 1992-95, and I don't think we had this complaining then. They were all very similar lengths, and all relatively flat, but the racing was still interesting, and each track had its own quirks. Loudon is a flat paperclip. Milwaukee is flat, but has much longer turns. Nazareth was a funky, pseudo-tri-oval. And Phoenix is, well, Phoenix.

[nickyf1]

But the one-milers are much more interesting to watch than the 1.5 milers.

[Purist]

How so?

I certainly don't consider one oval to be inherently more interesting than another purely based on length. And why would I?

I've also just never had that strong affinity specifically for short tracks that some have. If I find the track interesting with the type of cars I see on it, fine. If not, I'm not terribly likely to be enamored with the track.

[HJJ]

Originally Posted by Purist

How so?

I certainly don't consider one oval to be inherently more interesting than another purely based on length. And why would I?

I've also just never had that strong affinity specifically for short tracks that some have. If I find the track interesting with the type of cars I see on it, fine. If not, I'm not terribly likely to be enamored with the track.

One mile ovals are mostly flat tracks rather than the high banked 1.5 mile Nascar cookie ovals. Milwaukee, Richmond, Phoenix, Iowa make a better show than the 101% throttle shows at Texas. Or when they raced at Atlanta, Charlotte, Chicago, Kansas, Vegas etc.

IMHO these drafting racer-tainment tracks are manufactured racing. Sure, they had some close finishes but they tore up a lot equipment and costs some lives/careers.

[HJJ]

Originally Posted by Purist

I don't really know the validity of this thing, but I will say that a street circuit including a highway ramp is not unprecedented

They had one at the old CART N.J. Meadowlands street circuit.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Purist

That aspect doesn't really matter if you run on a variety of the ovals within a given range.

Running Las Vegas, Chicagoland, and the reconfigured Kansas Speedway wouldn't be so interesting, nor would running Atlanta, Charlotte, and Texas. However, running Texas, Kentucky, and Homestead (if you could get rid of the pack racing by-and-large) would be reasonably interesting. Those three ovals have different widths, corner radii, banking, and tri-ovals from one another.

It's kind of silly lumping all the 1.5-milers together. CART ran at four good 1.0-mile ovals in 1992-95, and I don't think we had this complaining then. They were all very similar lengths, and all relatively flat, but the racing was still interesting, and each track had its own quirks. Loudon is a flat paperclip. Milwaukee is flat, but has much longer turns. Nazareth was a funky, pseudo-tri-oval. And Phoenix is, well, Phoenix.

If you lump cookie-cutters together the racing does become uninteresting. In 1995, for example, CART spread out some of the ovals during the course of the season, though Nazareth, Indy and Milwaukee were bunched together, the difference in those three tracks added to the variety of tracks, which is at the heart of AOWR.

[Jonerz]

To throw a wrench in the discussion I've developed a dream/reasonable schedule for 2013:

1. Honda Grand Prix of St. Pete
2. Honda Grand Prix of Alabama (they better win the manufacturer's title with the amount of money they are spending to give IndyCar places to race)
3. Phoenix 200 (Phoenix International Raceway, long shot)
4. Toyota Grand Prix of Long Beach
5. 97th Indianapolis 500
6. Milwaukee Indy Fest (a better name would be the Miller 200)
7. Texas 550 (better have the CART-Style pencil mustache front wing)
8. Chevrolet Detroit Grand Prix
9. Cleveland Grand Prix (come on Lanigan!!)
10. Honda Indy Toronto
11. Michigan 500
12. Edmonton Indy
13. Portland 200
14. Fontana 500
15. Iowa 250
16. Honda 200 at Mid-Ohio
17. Road America Road Race showcase
18. Pocono 500
19. New Hampshire 200
20. Baltimore GP?
21. Sao Paolo Indy 300
22. Shell Grand Prix of Houston

It means nothing, but it is what I would like to see. Along with the announcement that in 2015 there will actually be chassis rules and proper competition in that area.

Chris

[ptclaus98]

Why in the **** do people want to go to Houston for a street race?

[Jonerz]

Not a terrible racetrack, happens at night so heat isn't an issue, Shell/Pennzoil has been wrangled as a title sponsor, Houston is a huge (and wealthy) market that supported the Grand Prix well when Champ Car and the ALMS ran there.

What isn't to like?

Chris

[Purist]

If you're going to make a deal out of the type of racing on those tracks that you're trying to lump together, then isn't it all of the longer ovals, including Indy itself, that have had issues with the IRL/ICS cars?

With any of the longer ovals (certainly once you reach or exceed 1.5 miles), you don't have the same tight confines which allow traffic to play the role it does on shorter ovals. You become rather more dependent on slipstreaming and aerodynamic play to make passing maneuvers happen.

And if the aforementioned items are the issue, to be even-handed, you must also take issue with Michigan, Fontana, Daytona, Talladega, and possibly Nashville also. On the matter of banking, Phoenix isn't really a flat track anymore, and Richmond and Iowa definitely are not flat tracks. Fontana, Kentucky, Nashville, Iowa, and Richmond all have their corners banked at 14 degrees. And while Loudon and Milwaukee are still quite flat, Pikes Peak is banked just enough more to be in the moderate range by my estimation. Rockingham and Dover are one-milers as well, but they're downright high-banked; they're both banked about as much on the straights as Milwaukee is in its corners.

For the 1.5-milers, I already gave three sets of ovals, of which two would be relatively uninteresting, and the third would be decidedly more interesting. The first set (new Kansas, Chicagoland, and Las Vegas) all have 18-20-degree corners, rather sweeping corners with somewhat short straights, very similar tri-ovals to one another, and are of the same width for the racing surface The second set (Texas, Charlotte, and Atlanta) all have 24-degree turns, 5-degree front and back stretches, and tri-ovals with two distinct kinks in them. The third, more interesting set (Texas, Kentucky, and Homestead) gives much more variation. Texas has the 24-degree turns and two-kink tri-oval, but is also the narrowest of the 1.5-milers. Kentucky is only banked 14 degree in the corners, with a wide track surface, and this promotes more handling difficulties while also giving greater scope for more racing lines. Homestead, unlike the other 1.5-milers, has no tri-oval. It is also fairly elongated, so the corners not only have to go through the full 180 degrees, but also have to do it in that much less distance.

And frankly, for any of the larger ovals, flat or otherwise, the cars need some fixing anyway. They need the really spindly wings, the undertray tunnel blockers, and the old 800-900+hp that would make them fast enough on the straights to have to back off in the turns. I'm actually kind of concerned that the new car might be able to run flat-out the whole time at Iowa; I wish they would just run the superspeedway package at all the ovals.

[Purist]

Jonerz, I like the idea of the triple crown, but I think a fourth 500-miler is just a bit too much perhaps. Also, for whatever reason, I'm decidedly more a fan of Michigan the Fontana. I'd also extend the Texas race (if it's kept) from 550k (342 miles, 228 laps) to 400 miles (267 laps). For the one-mile ovals, I'd run those races to 225 laps, and as things stand, and as it stands, Iowa (0.875-mile oval) runs its race 250 laps (218.75 miles).

On the whole, your schedule looks pretty good to me, though I'd be reasonably willing to exchange Fontana and Belle Isle for Watkins Glen and Surfers Paradise.

[NaBUru38]

My triple crown would definitely include Indianapolis, Long Beach and a green road course like Road America or Watkins Glen, not three ovals.

[bjohnsonsmith]

I'd like to see the Triple-Crown restored; it would bring variety.

[Purist]

NBU38, a trio like that just isn't going to garner enough attention to be worth doing. The old "Triple Crown" was three 500-mile races on oval superspeedways; first it was Indy, Pocono, and Ontario, and then it became Indy, Michigan, and Pocono.

IMSA staged the Nissan Triple Crown in 1991 with its races at Miami, Mid Ohio, and New Orleans, but "nobody" now knows that such a thing ever existed. Mid Ohio was just a regular round. New Orleans was a mess, albeit an interesting one, with an absurdly tight and narrow circuit, and a storm that blew in during the race, forcing the event to be cut short. Miami was the highlight, and it was already a jewel for IMSA on its own; the Triple Crown, and the other two events therein, added nothing to its luster.

The Indy Cars haven't run a 500k road race since the 1980s, and I doubt we'll be seeing a 500k race on a temporary circuit again any time soon. Also, the Road America 500 is the sportscar race, and is known as such, which is especially pertinent since IndyCar would most likely be returning to Elkhart Lake with the ALMS.

[Yannick]

Michigan Intl Speedway has been renovated by its NASCAR related owners and the new tarmac surface offers higher speeds. Who knows if this means the end for IndyCar at Michigan due to dangerous pack racing like in Las Vegas?

The same goes for all other recently renovated NASCAR owned ovals like Phoenix and Kansas: Unless they test the tracks first, nobody knows if they are suitable.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Yannick

Michigan Intl Speedway has been renovated by its NASCAR related owners and the new tarmac surface offers higher speeds. Who knows if this means the end for IndyCar at Michigan due to dangerous pack racing like in Las Vegas?

The same goes for all other recently renovated NASCAR owned ovals like Phoenix and Kansas: Unless they test the tracks first, nobody knows if they are suitable.

What do you mean the "end for the indy racin' league at Michigan"?

They haven't been there for years. The end came half a decade ago.

[Jonerz]

The biggest issue for me pursuant to ovals larger than one mile is degree of banking in the corners. If they have shallower banking like Indy as opposed to Texas it is more conducive to IndyCar. I think to safely ensure the end of stupid, boring, dangerous, pointless, talentless, no-historical-basis-for pack racing the cars would need less wing front and rear and over 900 horsepower along with a tire from Firestone that is as useful as having a rock on each corner. Hopefully IndyCar's changing management figures it out.

@Purist: As for the Triple Crown idea, drop Fontana to 400 miles.

Chris

[leothedrummer]

Originally Posted by Purist

The international rounds should have something extra, and there's no denying that there isn't really another oval out there like Rafaela.

Well, there is one other....Monza!

And you could stretch it and say that they have ran there in the past

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by leothedrummer

Well, there is one other....Monza!

And you could stretch it and say that they have ran there in the past

There's always Rockingham in England. CART raced there in 2002 at the Sure for Men Rockingham 500; it was a good race and I was there

[Purist]

I'm just not sure if these cars would require any lifting at Rockingham, or if they would just run flat-out the whole time.

The two things with Rafaela (the track itself) in my mind are its elongated shape, and very flat corners (8.5 degrees of banking). Monza would also have to be rebuilt, but it's not as much a paperclip, and more importantly, the top of the banking maxes out at 38.6 degrees (80% slope), which was nigh on insane for Indy Cars in 1957-58, let alone today.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by Purist

The Indy Cars haven't run a 500k road race since the 1980s, and I doubt we'll be seeing a 500k race on a temporary circuit again any time soon. Also, the Road America 500 is the sportscar race, and is known as such, which is especially pertinent since IndyCar would most likely be returning to Elkhart Lake with the ALMS.

What 500k race are you referring to? And do you mean miles or km? I agree that the ALMS owns the 500 mile Road America race. But a 500 km IndyCar race at Road America or Watkins Glen would be great, not so much at Barber or Mid-Ohio.