Ferrari vs Porsche

[Osella]

I can't say I'm surprised at Freisinger's victory in Spa. As long as it rains in Belgium, they were always going to be a major threat. (not sure what happened to my tenses there..)

What I want to ask is this; with Porsche still the dominant customer car in GT racing, do you think this will spur Ferrari on with it's cars, or cause them to think twice about investing more money?

Of course, what they ought to do is run Schumacher, Barrichello, Massa, Badoer in a GT car whenever the opportunity arises. (dream on)

The huge amount of feedback that all the 911GT2/GT3 teams and drivers have developed over the years must be a factor in their success IMO.

[Chevyguy]

Porsche has an immense network of support and incentive. Porsche is constantly flying Bernard and Burgmeister around the world lending a hand to their top teams. Imagine racing with Freisinger, Racers Group, and Alex Job in the same year! Buckler won Daytona with his Porsche Cup "trophy."

Ferrari, to my knowledge does none of that. I don't beleive they give anyone any money or cars. They also don't have any of the previously mentioned teams.

The current Gt phonomenon seems to have been created by teams and enthusiasts, and kind built on itself. When this happened, it got Ferrari's attention. Now they will be building cars for both production classes, but, will it last? I think as long as they can sell cars, they will sell them on the track as well. More money to fund the F1 team, right? If they really cared that much about beating Porsche, they would have already.

[gttouring]

Interest is gaining on stopping the porsche Juggernaut in GT
more and more teams arecoming as in GTS
the 360 is growing in numbers to fight porsche, the new shelby CSX, and the Gallardo is being rumored to fight GT, as Murcielago wants the GTS spoils
The 550 in GTS and the new Panoz GTS twinturbo, the Gt battles are just getting warmed up

[danhx]

Gttouring is right; the two GT classes are just beginning to get into the area they'll be in a couple years. But for now, i think that Ferrari really do want to see the 360 GT take a straight fight to the Porkers. Sure, Ferrari lead at Le Mans (for what, half a lap?...) but that was kind of a fluke and then the lump went kablooey anyway.

Regardless of the fact that there are no factory Ferrari GT teams, they did build the GT car and want to see it do well. I'm guessing that they'll spend the off season trying to squeeze some more oomph out of their screaming V8 to recoup the obvious power deficit to Porsche. The chassis seems very good on the 360, and from what i've read it's pretty mega under braking. Power is the key issue and with the people available at Maranello i'd imagine they'll rectify that situation, or at least try to.

I really can't see them simply not doing anything about the insufficiencies of their car or stopping the program; i've never known ferrari to stop something until it's come good. So expect them to get on it for next season.

[Kurt Maxwell]

What about Maserati vs Porsche in FIA GT races and at the LM 24 ?

Since the Maserati is based on the Enzo, it is just a Ferrari by another name.

There is going to be a very good period in sportscar racing soon.

[Liz]

I talked to a couple of 360 drivers over the weekend and they said that Ferrari is putting no money at all into the cars, and at the present they are 3 seconds behind the Porsches on straight line speed when the cars are at their best. ACEMCO is considering going to a Saleen next season as the development cost would be about the same for that and the 360 and a better chance of winning.

[Kurt Maxwell]

Liz-it is interesting that they are considering that move. It would be their third car in three years, but you are right when you say it would cost no more to run a Saleen S-7 in GTS.

Wouldn't it be great to see a GTS Saleen or Mosler have the right kind of budget to compete against Supercars from Europe?

Given that the FIA/ACO Supercar rules call for cars not too different than the road versions I think it could happen.

[alfasud]

It seems to me that Porsche consider supporting the customer teams, almost part of their core business, while with Ferrari it's just a side show.

Which is a pity, because the 360 should be a lot more competitive in GT/N-GT, and with better engine development *would* be a lot more competitive. It's just not getting the attention and factory support it should.

[Kurt Maxwell]

I agree,alfasud. I do wish Ferrari would get as serious about their customer GT program as Porsche is already.

All the sport needs is tons of Porsche GT-3 vs bunches of Modena GTs in N-GT and Carrera GTs vs Maserati "Enzos" in the top class.

Lets see strong privateer efforts with factory support-not Audi LMP type factory teams that crush everyone else and ruin the fun.

Pagani Zondas,Lambos and anything else would be a nice bonus.

Porsche vs Ferrari IS sportscar racing, IMO.

[kdr]

Originally posted by Kurt Maxwell
Porsche vs Ferrari IS sportscar racing, IMO.

and currently Ferrari vs Renault is their F1 racing...

[Aysedasi]

Porsche LMP v. Ferrari LMP would be.........

[gttouring]

ferrari has no choice but to sell and devlop the 360 as a customer GT, maybe even create the ferrari 400 (heh)
it is a bit down on power to the porkies, and well idon't see why it shouldn't be more of a threat

[Kurt Maxwell]

Since Porsche LMP vs LMP Frrari isn't going to happen the idea of mid engined V-10s and V-12s in Porsche and Ferrari built Supercars will have to do.

Throw in Zonda Mercedes,Saleens,Mosler, Lamborghini and it could be quite good.

Current prototypes are like F-1 cars with fenders and cost too much as well.

Supercars are a "cost effective" way to bring back what we saw in the movie "LeMans".

DPs are taking off in N.America and GT-Supercars in Europe (and in the ALMS?)
because the perceived value is close enough to ultra expensive prototypes but the costs are much lower. That is just reality.

Ratel gets it.
G/A gets it.
Even the ACO are getting it.

KM
ALMS-"fur die kinder"

[danhx]

Originally posted by Aysedasi
Porsche LMP v. Ferrari LMP would be.........

...ecstasy

[fabvt]

Even the ACO are getting it.

However, I just can't imagine the 24Hrs Le Mans without prototypes...
They're part of the history of the race (Porsche 917, Porsche 956/962, Peugeot 905, Audi R8R)...
In addition, it's the only occasion to go on seeing exotic cars developped by small manufacturers, which is also one of the interests of Le Mans (Rondeau, WR,...)

If the teams who enter those cars have the opportunity to use them in other notorious races (not as ISRS/FIASCC), I think those cars will also be financially interesting to be raced...

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by Kurt Maxwell


Supercars are a "cost effective" way to bring back what we saw in the movie "LeMans".

DPs are taking off in N.America and GT-Supercars in Europe (and in the ALMS?)
because the perceived value is close enough to ultra expensive prototypes but the costs are much lower. That is just reality.

Ratel gets it.
G/A gets it.
Even the ACO are getting it.

Well, true though all this may be, I don't see why I should embrace it.

And as for Le Mans, I saw high powered, ultra expensive prototypes. The GT's were the cars that got in the way of Michael Delaney......

[gttouring]

Dp's are gaining in numbers in NA and I see why now, with proper preparation- not the bloated brumos design, which i again say is the reseaon DP's got a bad reception, even if it is fast- I see them being a good thing to have out there, the racing is real good, and the Multimatic, and the Doran, are really works of art with in this framework, using production lights front and rear (although the chevy is suspect for its front lights) is a great product tie in, As a grumbler of DP's I think it is a good formula, er.. better now that it gets some more attention, If they could get these on a diet to go to 750kg maybe they will be better yet, and we can see them everywhere- think how neat it is, anyone can build them following the plan and approval, production blocks and motors used, and regular front radiators, normal off the shelf lights and mirrors, spec wing, most reasonable format. too bad the first few were so hideous bars of soap, damn ugly brumosPork
the DOran, Multimatic, maybe a new picchio might save the class, maybe fabcar can build a better one a more 'edgy'design with a nissan in mind?

[kdr]

this seems about the closest thread to mention this on without starting a new one.

bbc 4 tonight...the cobra/ferrari wars. again i know...but people keep missing it!

[bernard b]

Originally posted by Aysedasi
Porsche LMP v. Ferrari LMP would be.........

I'm with you on this ...

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by kdr
this seems about the closest thread to mention this on without starting a new one.

bbc 4 tonight...the cobra/ferrari wars. again i know...but people keep missing it!

Definitely worth a watch. Thanks to my pal AllonFS, I have it on tape.

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by bernard b
I'm with you on this ...

Well I'm glad someone is bernard!

[Kurt Maxwell]

I DO NOT say that you have to like what is happening nor do I suggest that LMP cars will go away at LM or the LMES events.

However,you may see the GTS cars given an equal shot at winning via smaller fuel tanks on LMPs.

I think that it is one thing to talk about Porsche 911 GT cars (much like the one Steve McQueen ran up on in the movie) winning LM overall and seeing a Porsche Carrera GT or Maserati "Enzo" GTS car doing it.

[paulzinho]

You know I am Ayse......just as long as they put a roof on them!

[Kurt Maxwell]

gttouring-when I first saw the Fabcar at their shop I was not that enthused. In fact, none of the cars we saw at Daytona did much for me. The concept was great, but I was expecting "unhomologated"/prototype Moslers and Saleens. The cars instead not only did not look "swoopy", but they had a kit car feel to them.

I think that the DPs have already begun to evolve. The cars will improve- but still be inexpensive to run- and the number of teams coming should provide exciting racing.

Of course some people prefer watching an exhibition- like the one at 3 Creeks -and that is their right.

[Liz]

Yes it is, and our privilege. Three cheers for diversification in sports car competitions! Or exhibitions if you like that word better. But whatever it was, I like it ever so much better than watching bloated shadow cars pretend to be divers makes and models, just as I dislike Meccano models that call themselves "Yachts".

Give me a Ferrari and a Porsche and a Corvette and a Saleen any day.