Modern Group A

[Samwhk]

That seems a lot? Especially for Australian manufacturers. I don't know any figures, but I can't imagine that'd work for Holden or Ford.

[Umai Naa]

How many VE Series II SS Commodores have been built to date?

[Samwhk]

I honestly wouldn't have a clue. But a Group A special would need to a bit more serious than an SS. I think 5,000 units would be fine, just cut that 500 'evo' model stuff out.

[Umai Naa]

Why would you need a Group A special?

Wasn't the whole idea based around cars you could buy off the showroom floor?

[Samwhk]

Isn't that just Production racing? I'm young, so don't fully remember everything about Gp A, but they didn't exactly seem to be full on production cars.

[Umai Naa]

Besides the usual race-orientated modifications and allowable freedoms, they essentially were production cars early on.

[Samwhk]

Yeah, but hotter & nastier than ya run of the mill SS or FPV. I'm not trying to be a dick, but if there was to be a modern Grp A, it'd be much more exciting if the cars were pumping out serious HP, big brake equipped, and bespoke, but road going type, aero kits.

[Oldtony]

The reason the GTHOs etc disappeared was exactly because the manufacturers were required to build and sell them to the general public.
There was a famous Evan Green write up which led to a tabloid campaign against making "supercars" easily available to "hoons".
Keeping them restricted is the only way to make producing race cars for sale acceptable to the "shock jock" set who seem to think that high performance equals dangerous stupidity.
Probably around 100 of the exact model but with a requirement that a major proportion of the car was production sourced would work best.

[Samwhk]

That would be the famous 'supercar scare' that killed the XU2, Phase IV & V8 E49 yeah? Would that sorta thing still happen these days? I would've thought the most likely opponents would be the green brigade. Which in itself would be quite the hurdle.

[Umai Naa]

The idea of keeping the build numbers high is to not make it viable to do a 'race special'.

With the ADRs we have, you can only make a car so race-orientated before, once again, it becomes unviable, or prohibitively expensive to buy.

[DAVID PATERSON]

Originally Posted by Samwhk

Isn't that just Production racing? I'm young, so don't fully remember everything about Gp A, but they didn't exactly seem to be full on production cars.

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

Besides the usual race-orientated modifications and allowable freedoms, they essentially were production cars early on.

Group A cars had to run standard bodywork and factory head & block. Until 1990, they were required to run standard manifolds. They had to use standard gearbox & diff housings and homologated ratios. Minimum weight, maximim fuel tank size and maximum rim width were all determined by engine size. Maximum wheel diameter was 2" over standard.

Passenger seats and floor coverings and hoodlinings could be removed, as well as the radio. Instruments and switches were free. Massive racing brakes could be homologated and all suspension arms could be fabricated and rose jointed, but were restricted to the same basic design and mountings point as standard.

The philosophy was that cars looked standard, so punters could relate to them and manufacturers could demonstrate their products, but the cars drove a lot better than a standard car and were significantly faster, to improve the show.

[Samwhk]

That sounds pretty good to me. Now, how do we get the manufacturers and promoters to pony up for this again?

[aussiemuscle308]

Originally Posted by David Towe

I can certainly identify with a Commodiore that has had 4 inches cut out of it to make it fit a chassis that is the same as the so called Falcons and Nissans have to run. .

V8SC seem bent on going down the same path that NASCAR are doing (with dedicated racing chassis and body). yet the same criticisms are leveled at NASCAR and those who remember the 'old' days of nascar and pine for a return to showroom showdown type vehicles. Nascar seems to be a rolling billboard rather than an opportunity for the manufacturer's to showcase their product. (which youd' think would be what the manufacturers would want)

best of luck getting a Group A category going either way.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by aussiemuscle308

V8SC seem bent on going down the same path that NASCAR are doing (with dedicated racing chassis and body). yet the same criticisms are leveled at NASCAR and those who remember the 'old' days of nascar and pine for a return to showroom showdown type vehicles. Nascar seems to be a rolling billboard rather than an opportunity for the manufacturer's to showcase their product.

Most of those people remember the good things about the time, they forget the bad things, and the bad things they do remember they often look on them as good things.

They also forget that times have changed and what was once acceptable is no longer acceptable.

They look back on Peter Brock winning by 160 laps as an awesome thing and then they complain when the gap is 2 seconds

[Marcos WTF]

Originally Posted by db120176

Will the tyre width still be based on the engine power?

I hadn't thought of that. I'd base it on engine capicity.

[db120176]

Originally Posted by Marcos WTF

I hadn't thought of that. I'd base it on engine capicity.

Here is a great clip of how Group A was setup in Australia:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bq2lc3DLwM

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by aussiemuscle308

V8SC seem bent on going down the same path that NASCAR are doing (with dedicated racing chassis and body). yet the same criticisms are leveled at NASCAR and those who remember the 'old' days of nascar and pine for a return to showroom showdown type vehicles. Nascar seems to be a rolling billboard rather than an opportunity for the manufacturer's to showcase their product. (which youd' think would be what the manufacturers would want)

OFF-Topic:

I wonder if there are plans that NASCAR might buy V8 Supercars since their cars are getting more tube-framed than showroom stock?

[Mixer]

I personally believe if you were to go down the path of a modern Group A with the kind of horsepower we can generate now that you're going to eventually end up with driver fatalities akin to the Mike Bergmann or Don Watson crashes.

[FAS33]

Originally Posted by peckstar

Most of those people remember the good things about the time, they forget the bad things, and the bad things they do remember they often look on them as good things.

They also forget that times have changed and what was once acceptable is no longer acceptable.

They look back on Peter Brock winning by 160 laps as an awesome thing and then they complain when the gap is 2 seconds

and the very same people say that its boring and stale, yet they found Brocky winning by 12 laps more exciting...lol. I think we sometimes take this for granted, and some people think Group A was the best there ever was, but as time moved on (and for some its a great past-time) and lesser crowds were interested in Motorsport, something had to happen for it to bounce back, and since V8 Supercars began, there was no looking back, we have some of the best racing on the planet, the tracks are awesome, the coverage alright...but in 20 years time, We'll all be like "bring back the old days of the V8's, Ford VS Holden and the COTF program"

quote for truth Umai Naa: "The cars and the sport have evolved. The mentaility of the detractors has not".

[douglasjames671]

Great to see, in the clip of the BMW, Ludwig Finauers trademark Goofy sticker on the engine . . . he was a pretty good steerer too!!
One query though is how in goodness name did DJR manage to homologate the 9 inch for the Sierras??

[one five five]

Originally Posted by Mixer

I personally believe if you were to go down the path of a modern Group A with the kind of horsepower we can generate now that you're going to eventually end up with driver fatalities akin to the Mike Bergmann or Don Watson crashes.

How in the world do you come to such an extreme conclusion like that?

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by one five five

How in the world do you come to such an extreme conclusion like that?

Basically because production cars just do not stand up to bad crashes at racing speeds unless you make significant alterations to them, for example:

• Extending roll cage through front and rear firewalls
• Moving driver further into the centre of the car
• Installing fuel cell inside axles

All of which starts to move a long way from production, and starts to look COTFish.

[Umai Naa]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Basically because production cars just do not stand up to bad crashes at racing speeds unless you make significant alterations to them, for example:

• Extending roll cage through front and rear firewalls
• Moving driver further into the centre of the car
• Installing fuel cell inside axles

All of which starts to move a long way from production, and starts to look COTFish.

This.

By the time you make a production bodyshell as safe as it can possibly be, there isn't much of a production bodyshell left.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Basically because production cars just do not stand up to bad crashes at racing speeds unless you make significant alterations to them, for example:

And yet we have a production car class in Australia that is fully within CAMS and FIA regulations??

If this style of car was so dangerous, they wouldn't be allowed to race period

[David Towe]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Basically because production cars just do not stand up to bad crashes at racing speeds unless you make significant alterations to them, for example:

• Extending roll cage through front and rear firewalls
• Moving driver further into the centre of the car
• Installing fuel cell inside axles

All of which starts to move a long way from production, and starts to look COTFish.

Every Group A car I've owned has had the cage extended through to the front and rear strut towers. The seat is also moved inboard as far as the transmission tunnel will allow (not very far when get a seat to fit my more than ample rear end) the fuel cells were all in the boot area.
Can I ask you Mixer, do you think that Don Watson and Mike Burgman would have survived those same crashes if they were in a COTF? We lost Mike Porter (and another who's name escapes me) in the last few years and they were in V8 Supercars which are more developed than the supposedly unsafe Group A cars.
The simple fact is that we take a risk when we get behind the wheel and travel at speed around a race track.