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Old 9 Jul 2018, 17:30 (Ref:3835691)   #16
morninggents
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Originally Posted by Kempi View Post
We had a roughly 4s difference in fastest laps and everyone that finished were on the lead lap. The retirements were mainly due to crashes.

If you read it that way it does not read much different to 1977. The difference is two things: the overall grid is much more competitive than it was 10, 20, 30 40 or 50 years ago. During those time the wins by "small" teams were outliers as they are today, most of the time caused by the more frequent retirements of the faster cars.

The cars are almost bulletproof, thanks to the regulations and quality control. It will not happen as often that fast cars break down and this mixing up the grid and the results.

The old times look nice, feel nice in memory but were not better.

Of course all the finishers were on the lead lap - there were two quite long safety car periods - the last one not too far from the end of the race.


Of course it is different from 1977 - in those days and for many years before and after cars could overtake each other on the track and not just due to 'pitstop strategy'.


Of course the cars are now almost bulletproof - the regulations are so restrictive that just about the only way to get an advantage is to ensure they are so reliable they will always finish.


Of course the old times looked better - because they were - the racing was much superior to todays follow my leader until a pitstop farces.


I will grant that yesterdays race was one of the better ones of recent years because of Hamilton's assisted spin and great recovery but was there much on track overtaking?


I will say that the racing today is so much safer than it was 20 plus years ago and that is a good thing. I can't say that anything else compares to what formula 1 used to be like. Look on YouTube for the 1971 Italian GP - brilliant racing.
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Old 9 Jul 2018, 17:32 (Ref:3835692)   #17
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Originally Posted by Kempi View Post
This year we had a 2.4s difference between first and last in Q1.
This is not a fair comparison as it is highly likely, in fact probable, that the fastest cars such as the Mercs, Ferraris, etc. weren't giving it 100% in Q1, unlike qualifying in the past when there wasn't an elimination process as now.



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Originally Posted by Kempi View Post
We had a roughly 4s difference in fastest laps and everyone that finished were on the lead lap. The retirements were mainly due to crashes.
Again, an unfair comparison as yesteryear there was no safety car to bunch up the cars, and in some instances allow cars/drivers to unlap themselves. And in this years race, there were two safety car periods late in the race which had a dramatic effect on both the result and how the cars all finished on the same lap.

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The old times look nice, feel nice in memory but were not better.

On the whole, I agree with you, although certain aspects of the racing was better back then because it was man and machine racing whereas nowadays there is too much reliance on machine. And I can only remember that race in Italy that produced such a dramatic finish. Oh, and the Monaco race when Mansell was climbing all over who I can't remember for lap after lap to try to win the race.
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Old 9 Jul 2018, 17:40 (Ref:3835693)   #18
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If we're going to use one specific event in history to prove all of current F1 is broken then I'm going to go the other way.

1977 German GP, the one directly after the British GP, the cars that qualified were spread by 4 seconds. The entire grid was 6. That's much more than what we see in 2018.

I agree F1 is a bit broken, but not using these metrics.
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Old 9 Jul 2018, 17:43 (Ref:3835696)   #19
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Originally Posted by Mike Harte View Post
Oh, and the Monaco race when Mansell was climbing all over who I can't remember for lap after lap to try to win the race.
1992 - Mansell chasing down Senna.

Senna won by just 0.215 seconds
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Old 9 Jul 2018, 18:01 (Ref:3835698)   #20
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1992 - Mansell chasing down Senna.

Senna won by just 0.215 seconds

Thank you. All I could remember was how gripping it was, and how they had to lift Mansell out of the car (again!) after the race was over.
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Old 9 Jul 2018, 18:09 (Ref:3835700)   #21
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
If we're going to use one specific event in history to prove all of current F1 is broken then I'm going to go the other way.

1977 German GP, the one directly after the British GP, the cars that qualified were spread by 4 seconds. The entire grid was 6. That's much more than what we see in 2018.

I agree F1 is a bit broken, but not using these metrics.

At this year's Spanish GP there was a spread of 4.239 seconds for race fastest laps, and that was only 20 cars.
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Old 9 Jul 2018, 18:11 (Ref:3835701)   #22
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Originally Posted by morninggents View Post
At this year's Spanish GP there was a spread of 4.239 seconds for race fastest laps, and that was only 20 cars.
Yes, that's my point. You've chosen a single example that fits the argument. Now I'll go choose another one that invalidates it. Then there will be another single example that fits it, etc etc.
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Old 9 Jul 2018, 18:12 (Ref:3835702)   #23
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Originally Posted by Mike Harte View Post
Thank you. All I could remember was how gripping it was, and how they had to lift Mansell out of the car (again!) after the race was over.
Nigel was always good with the silly drama. He'll even fake an injury to get lifted from the car.

Man, I miss those days.
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Old 9 Jul 2018, 18:23 (Ref:3835705)   #24
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
I agree F1 is a bit broken, but not using these metrics.
What are we using as a judgment basis for F1 being broken.
The OP seemed to suggest that statistics indicate this:
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Originally Posted by GregUK View Post
There was pre-qualifying and 6 cars were eliminated through that, leaving 30 cars to chase the 26 available places. The slowest 4 didn't make the grid. Of these, the slowest was Emilio de Villota (father of the late Maria) who was just 3.04 seconds away from James Hunt's pole time.
It has been suggested that a lack of overtaking is also an indicator of how 'bad' things are:
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Originally Posted by morninggents View Post
Of course it is different from 1977 - in those days and for many years before and after cars could overtake each other on the track and not just due to 'pitstop strategy'.

Of course the old times looked better - because they were - the racing was much superior to todays follow my leader until a pitstop farces.

I will grant that yesterdays race was one of the better ones of recent years because of Hamilton's assisted spin and great recovery but was there much on track overtaking?
So how much overtaking actually happened in the past - this era people refer to where one or two races a season can be recalled as having lots of overtakes, whereas in fact the majority of races were just decided on attrition.

So how about some other facts to see how today's racing stacks up?

In 2016 - Max Verstappen set a new record for overtakes in a season by a single driver. His 78 was 16 more than Lauda's 32-yr record. Obviously there are more races in recent seasons, but surely this confirms that overtaking is an art that new drivers are familiar with? Verstappen's overtakes came at an average of 3.71 per race, compared to Lauda's 3.75.

The top ten (as of 31 Dec 16):

1 - Max Verstappen - 2016 - 78 - 3.71
2 - Daniel Ricciardo - 2016 - 61 - 2.90
3 - Sebastian Vettel - 2012 - 60 - 3.00
4 - Michael Schumacher - 2003 - 60 - 3.75
5 - Niki Lauda - 1984 - 60 - 3.75
6 - Felipe Massa - 2013 - 59 - 3.10
7 - Mark Webber - 2013 - 59 - 3.10
8 - Jean-Eric Vergne - 2012 - 58 - 2.90
9 - Sergio Perez - 2016 - 56 - 2.66
10 - Kimi Raikkonen - 2013 - 56 - 2.95

How about the overall field, well the list of total overtakes per season 1984-2016 reads as follows:

Year - Overtakes - Races - Average per race
1990 - 494 - 16 - 30.9
1991 - 495 - 16 - 30.9
1992 - 406 - 16 - 25.4
1993 - 392 - 16 - 24.5
1994 - 289 - 16 - 18.1
1995 - 297 - 17 - 17.5
1996 - 186 - 16 - 11.6
1997 - 265 - 17 - 15.6
1998 - 207 - 16 - 12.9
1999 - 260 - 16 - 16.3
2000 - 279 - 16 - 16.4
2001 - 230 - 17 - 13.5
2002 - 235 - 17 - 13.8
2003 - 303 - 16 - 18.9
2004 - 287 - 18 - 16.2
2005 - 207 - 19 - 10.9
2006 - 291 - 18 - 16.2
2007 - 270 - 17 - 15.9
2008 - 267 - 18 - 14.8
2009 - 211 - 16 - 13.2
2010 - 452 - 19 - 23.8
2011 - 821 - 19 - 43.2
2012 - 870 - 20 - 43.5
2013 - 760 - 19 - 40.0
2014 - 636 - 19 - 33.5
2015 - 509 - 19 - 26.8
2016 - 866 - 21 - 41.2

I understand that the high number of overtakes in recent seasons is down to DRS, and many would see these as purely 'passes' that have not required an overtaking skill. But prior to this the trend was downwards - and this is most likely down to technological advances. The organisers have introduced measures to negate this factor. Is that not what is currently being proposed by the OP?

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Let's have skinnier tyres; smaller brakes; way less aero; get rid of all the hybrid stuff and fuel limitations but add a bit more bhp. How hard can it be?
It would be lot harder to get manufacturers to agree to a reduction in abilty to showcase their technical prowess!
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Old 9 Jul 2018, 18:34 (Ref:3835710)   #25
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However we decide that F1 is broken, I'm not sure pre-qualifying and qualifying spread is a good metric...or even a usable metric.

So we want so many cars that we need pre-qualifying. But largely, pre-qualifying was used to eliminate cars which were 10sec+ off the pace. So we want a small spread, and we want more cars, and the ability to cut them off before the race begins? These seem like contradictions.

For every race where the spread was small, there's another in that time where it was large. This applies largely throughout the history of F1, and using single examples to make a point doesn't really hold any water.

F1 has plenty of issues - ranging from ugly cars, to racing that doesn't work without DRS, all the way to poor TV rights. When I watch F1, I don't immediately think "wouldn't this be better with a terrible team 10 seconds off the pace that have to pack up on Saturday!".
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Old 9 Jul 2018, 18:43 (Ref:3835713)   #26
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1992 - Mansell chasing down Senna.

Senna won by just 0.215 seconds
Is this being cited as an example of the better racing from the past?

Senna got a better start into turn 1 - and then for 70 laps it was a 'follow my leader until a pit stop' kind of race....

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Of course the old times looked better - because they were - the racing was much superior to todays follow my leader until a pitstop farces.
Then - in a car that was over 2secs a lap quicker - Mansell was unable to overtake.

Patrese - couldn't attack Senna due to gearbox issues.
Schumacher - passed Alesi after gearbox issues.

Only 12 cars finished - only 6 cars on the lead lap.
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Old 9 Jul 2018, 18:52 (Ref:3835715)   #27
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Not sure we need pre qualifying, but we do almost certainly need more cars on the grid. 20 ain’t enough, we need a few more
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Old 9 Jul 2018, 19:19 (Ref:3835720)   #28
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Despite the title, I'm not advocating pre-qualy. I would like to see more than 20 cars though but...
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Old 9 Jul 2018, 19:58 (Ref:3835736)   #29
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Oh, and the Monaco race when Mansell was climbing all over who I can't remember for lap after lap to try to win the race.
Yeah, and as it was pointed out, he did not manage because Monaco. Otherwise he would have breathed past as easy as Hamilton did assisted with DRS because his car was so much faster.

Dijon 79 is remembered for Arnoux - Villeneuve. What everyone forgets is that the 90% of the race before that clash was totally uneventful.

Other example: Suzuka 2000 was a total thriller despite no on track overtakes for the lead (and championship). Good racing does not need many overtakes, it needs equally fast cars and the chance that a pass might be on. Just as Silverstone presented us with in the last 10 laps this year.

Yes, that was assisted by the safety car due to drivers having crashed before. Otherwise it would have been quite boring for the lead. So what? That is not how it turned out.
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Old 9 Jul 2018, 21:52 (Ref:3835750)   #30
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Originally Posted by GregUK View Post
Remember the days when:
  • a Silverstone F1 grid would be covered by less than 2 seconds?
Never, ever, ever?
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