Circuit layout change proposals

[chillibowl]

which Tilke tracks are we talking about?

because some of them are great and even those that started out boring have improved a lot over the years.

like the cars, race tracks evolve and change over time.

interestingly enough, Covid afforded f1 the opportunity to visits tracks it has not been to in a long time (some ostensibly pushed off the calendar by money and tilkedromes)...was the racing there better?

in some cases it was but even then the places seemed too small for where F1 is now. they were enjoyed as distraction but i question if they could be again made into permanent entries?

like tilke or not, his design philosophy has seemingly predicted the design direction F1 cars were heading in and accommodated them with wide tracks, slow corners that facilitate the relative changes in speed necessary to allow for more overtaking, lots of run off that keeps cars in the game.

as sign of the times perhaps that it was actually easier to build new types of tracks rather then change the rules of F1 or to get the teams to abandon decades of research and money spent on pursuing aero solutions.

anyways, we dont complain about processional races anymore so that's got to count for something right?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

like tilke or not, his design philosophy has seemingly predicted the design direction F1 cars were heading in and accommodated them with wide tracks, slow corners that facilitate the relative changes in speed necessary to allow for more overtaking, lots of run off that keeps cars in the game.

IMHO, that is quite a stretch. I think the Tilke tracks may have some level of defining characteristics, but the F1 calendar covers a number of legacy, new and street circuits. I can't say I see how Tilke's design decisions has driven the direction of F1 development given there is still a lot of track variability.

I do agree that you can't paint all Tilke tracks with the same "they are bad" brush.

Richard

[crmalcolm]

On the subject of Tilke's involvement, worth noting that he was involved with the renovation of:

Autódromo Hermanos Rodr?*guez, Circuit de Barcelona-Catalunya, Hockenheimring, A1 Ring and Nürburgring.

Are they all improved or worsened?

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I can't say I see how Tilke's design decisions has driven the direction of F1 development given there is still a lot of track variability.

in fairness, i didnt say that he dove the direction of F1 development...rather im suggesting that he saw the direction F1 teams/rulemakers were going in and designed tracks which would suit those characteristics that F1 teams were themselves already building towards.

probably overstating my point though!

more just think his tracks have come into their own over these past few years and hoping they do more so given the new rules.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

On the subject of Tilke's involvement, worth noting that he was involved with the renovation of:

Autódromo Hermanos Rodr?*guez, Circuit de Barcelona-Catalunya, Hockenheimring, A1 Ring and Nürburgring.

Are they all improved or worsened?

All of them are worse, although I can appreciate they probably work from a brief from the FIA on requirements.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

On the subject of Tilke's involvement, worth noting that he was involved with the renovation of:

Autódromo Hermanos Rodr?*guez, Circuit de Barcelona-Catalunya, Hockenheimring, A1 Ring and Nürburgring.

Are they all improved or worsened?

Hockenheim is an interesting one.

I loved the old layout but I feel that the new layout is one of Tilke's best as well.

[chunterer]

I'd put Istanbul and Sepang top by a fair margin.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by chunterer

I'd put Istanbul and Sepang top by a fair margin.

Im in total agreement there,

[chunterer]

Is Austin one of Tilke's too? If so that's the other stand out design.

The 'reprofiled' ones are just AN Other circuit imo.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Skam85

Hockenheim is an interesting one.

I loved the old layout but I feel that the new layout is one of Tilke's best as well.

Yes, but the old one had it's own character, even if it wasn't the most challenging. The new one is too much like other circuits

[Alan52]

If someone can design Istanbul,COTA and Sepang they obviously know how to make a great circuit.In a lot of the other cases I’m pretty sure he wasn’t given a clean slate but had to fit in with either natural or commercial compromises.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Alan52

If someone can design Istanbul,COTA and Sepang they obviously know how to make a great circuit.In a lot of the other cases I’m pretty sure he wasn’t given a clean slate but had to fit in with either natural or commercial compromises.

Yes that is highly likely. The Hockenheim reconstruction in particular would fit either of those criteria.

[S griffin]

Don't forget though that Istanbul was originally going to be clockwise. When they realised it wouldn't work, they switched to anti-clockwise, so the great layout almost came about by accident

[wnut]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Don't forget though that Istanbul was originally going to be clockwise. When they realised it wouldn't work, they switched to anti-clockwise, so the great layout almost came about by accident

You just have to wonder ...

[wnut]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Don't forget though that Istanbul was originally going to be clockwise. When they realised it wouldn't work, they switched to anti-clockwise, so the great layout almost came about by accident

You just have to wonder ...

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Is Austin one of Tilke's too? If so that's the other stand out design.

The 'reprofiled' ones are just AN Other circuit imo.

The COTA layout was conceived by promoter Tavo Hellmund and the 1993 Motorcycle World Champion Kevin Schwantz, with Tilke's assistance.

[Richard C]

Not sure if this is right thread for this. But here is a video showing some of the changes at Spa. The Eau Rouge and Raidillon section has had quite a bit of changes with a lot of extra paved runoff. Especially on the uphill side. The video is Porsche testing GT and Prototype cars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Koc_PNDrOtw

Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Not sure if this is right thread for this. But here is a video showing some of the changes at Spa. The Eau Rouge and Raidillon section has had quite a bit of changes with a lot of extra paved runoff. Especially on the uphill side. The video is Porsche testing GT and Prototype cars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Koc_PNDrOtw

Richard

There is more run off than race track.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Not sure if this is right thread for this. But here is a video showing some of the changes at Spa. The Eau Rouge and Raidillon section has had quite a bit of changes with a lot of extra paved runoff. Especially on the uphill side. The video is Porsche testing GT and Prototype cars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Koc_PNDrOtw

Richard

Well the risk of car bouncing back on the track seems greatly reduced. So should be better. Seems they removed a house and a whole hillside to make room.

[Taxi645]

Coming back to Monaco. Would it make any significant difference for overtaking if the final corner sequence going onto the start finish straight would be changed? So basically turning corner 18 and 19 into a single much more open corner by removing the centre piece of the road where now the statue of Fangio is on. This would make the straight more or less start at Rascasse instead of turn 19, so lengthening it by about 80 meters. A smooth increasing radius corner like that is easier to following closer. Might be just enough to give a bit more chance to stick your nose in at turn 1.

Might also influence line choice through Rascasse. You'd want a late apex to maximise exit onto the straight then, but you don't want to open up too much to leave a gap on the inside. If you keep it tight to not offer that gap, the guy behind could choose the late apex for maximizing speed onto the straight. The way it is now, exit speed out of Rascasse is not important, cause you have to navigate turns 18 and 19 single file anyway and following there closely is not easy.

So the green line instead of the red line:

[john ruston]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

Coming back to Monaco. Would it make any significant difference for overtaking if the final corner sequence going onto the start finish straight would be changed? So basically turning corner 18 and 19 into a single much more open corner by removing the centre piece of the road where now the statue of Fangio is on. This would make the straight more or less start at Rascasse instead of turn 19, so lengthening it by about 80 meters. Might be just enough to give a bit more chance to stick your nose in at turn 1.


Might also influence line choice through Rascasse. You'd want a late apex to maximise exit onto the straight then, but you don't want to open up too much to leave a gap on the inside. If you keep it tight to not offer that gap, the guy behind could choose the late apex for maximizing speed onto the straight.

It’s easy
Do away with chicane after tunnel
Fill in swimming pool
Knock down all that new stuff on Rasgas . Back to proper hairpin
Eg Go back to original before developers messed it about.
Can’t see it ever working !

[Theunser]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

Coming back to Monaco. Would it make any significant difference for overtaking if the final corner sequence going onto the start finish straight would be changed? So basically turning corner 18 and 19 into a single much more open corner by removing the centre piece of the road where now the statue of Fangio is on. This would make the straight more or less start at Rascasse instead of turn 19, so lengthening it by about 80 meters. A smooth increasing radius corner like that is easier to following closer. Might be just enough to give a bit more chance to stick your nose in at turn 1.

Might also influence line choice through Rascasse. You'd want a late apex to maximise exit onto the straight then, but you don't want to open up too much to leave a gap on the inside. If you keep it tight to not offer that gap, the guy behind could choose the late apex for maximizing speed onto the straight. The way it is now, exit speed out of Rascasse is not important, cause you have to navigate turns 18 and 19 single file anyway and following there closely is not easy.

So the green line instead of the red line:

It's actually quite a good idea. It wouldn't mess up the iconic Monaco layout, yet it would make an opportunity for the overtake. Also a thing i don't get is why they made the chicane after Swimming pool faster in 2016.

But the problems with lack of overtaking not only in Monaco, but in general, I think is down to the cars. They are too big, too heavy and simply just too fast in the corners. Okay, I know F1 is meant to be the fastest, but it would make racing more exciting, and possibly more pure, and we might be able to get rid of DRS. I mean it's of course difficult to follow cars if your corner speed is let's say 240. Would it be let's say 190, it would be much more easier.
(The second part has nothing to do with this thread, but I think it's more the cars fault than the track. I can remember how the two Williams passed Alonso in 2005. They layout was the same...)

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

Coming back to Monaco. Would it make any significant difference for overtaking if the final corner sequence going onto the start finish straight would be changed? So basically turning corner 18 and 19 into a single much more open corner by removing the centre piece of the road where now the statue of Fangio is on. This would make the straight more or less start at Rascasse instead of turn 19, so lengthening it by about 80 meters. A smooth increasing radius corner like that is easier to following closer. Might be just enough to give a bit more chance to stick your nose in at turn 1.

Might also influence line choice through Rascasse. You'd want a late apex to maximise exit onto the straight then, but you don't want to open up too much to leave a gap on the inside. If you keep it tight to not offer that gap, the guy behind could choose the late apex for maximizing speed onto the straight. The way it is now, exit speed out of Rascasse is not important, cause you have to navigate turns 18 and 19 single file anyway and following there closely is not easy.

So the green line instead of the red line:

Originally Posted by Theunser

It's actually quite a good idea. It wouldn't mess up the iconic Monaco layout, yet it would make an opportunity for the overtake. Also a thing i don't get is why they made the chicane after Swimming pool faster in 2016.

But the problems with lack of overtaking not only in Monaco, but in general, I think is down to the cars. They are too big, too heavy and simply just too fast in the corners. Okay, I know F1 is meant to be the fastest, but it would make racing more exciting, and possibly more pure, and we might be able to get rid of DRS. I mean it's of course difficult to follow cars if your corner speed is let's say 240. Would it be let's say 190, it would be much more easier.
(The second part has nothing to do with this thread, but I think it's more the cars fault than the track. I can remember how the two Williams passed Alonso in 2005. They layout was the same...)

Biggest issue with the Green line is the pit entry.
We saw over the weekend how easy it was for it to be blocked and we have seen in previous years the difficulty of getting out of the way whilst entering the pits. Cars entering the pits would cause all sorts of issues for the green line.

[Theunser]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

Biggest issue with the Green line is the pit entry.
We saw over the weekend how easy it was for it to be blocked and we have seen in previous years the difficulty of getting out of the way whilst entering the pits. Cars entering the pits would cause all sorts of issues for the green line.

Yes, that's true. Also the pit itself would have to be smaller, didn't it. The pit exit is also quite dangerous. I think it was Sainz on one of the practice sessions who either started or finished his lap and crossed the line at the pit exit, that being the quicker line, but someone just came out. It wasn't very eye-catching, even the commentators didn't mention it, but I noticed it. It's much like Paul Ricard. But i doubt they can do anything about it.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by john ruston

It’s easy
Do away with chicane after tunnel
Fill in swimming pool
Knock down all that new stuff on Rasgas . Back to proper hairpin
Eg Go back to original before developers messed it about.
Can’t see it ever working !

With these sort of cars it will indeed always be a challenge to provide a good race.

Originally Posted by Theunser

It's actually quite a good idea. It wouldn't mess up the iconic Monaco layout, yet it would make an opportunity for the overtake. Also a thing i don't get is why they made the chicane after Swimming pool faster in 2016.

But the problems with lack of overtaking not only in Monaco, but in general, I think is down to the cars. They are too big, too heavy and simply just too fast in the corners. Okay, I know F1 is meant to be the fastest, but it would make racing more exciting, and possibly more pure, and we might be able to get rid of DRS. I mean it's of course difficult to follow cars if your corner speed is let's say 240. Would it be let's say 190, it would be much more easier.
(The second part has nothing to do with this thread, but I think it's more the cars fault than the track. I can remember how the two Williams passed Alonso in 2005. They layout was the same...)

Yes, the cars are too big. Things will improve with the smaller cars from 2016 on wards. I expect it won't be enough to make racing very good at Monaco, but at least it's a very decent step in the right direction.

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

Biggest issue with the Green line is the pit entry.
We saw over the weekend how easy it was for it to be blocked and we have seen in previous years the difficulty of getting out of the way whilst entering the pits. Cars entering the pits would cause all sorts of issues for the green line.

Possibly, this is what it would roughly look like. You see both the current layout and what would be proposed.