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Old 1 Jan 2022, 08:05 (Ref:4092048)   #51
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this thread is titled
2022 and beyond... What will be the impact of the new regulations
yet most of the recent posts are yet again rehashing abu dhabi.
Isnt there another thread for that, or is there a rule i missed that all threads are now to be about that
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Old 1 Jan 2022, 09:51 (Ref:4092052)   #52
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Originally Posted by bathurst77 View Post
this thread is titled
2022 and beyond... What will be the impact of the new regulations
yet most of the recent posts are yet again rehashing abu dhabi.
Isnt there another thread for that, or is there a rule i missed that all threads are now to be about that


We have the biggest change in the cars (and tyres) since the hybrid era dawned and rather than speak about what might happen next in relation to the new car regulations, we seem stuck in post mortem mode and race director stuff.

Or am I wrong in thinking the impact of the new regulations in the thread title are actually not about the cars?
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Old 1 Jan 2022, 11:17 (Ref:4092065)   #53
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A finish under the safety car is a result, but is it a sporting result if the rules prevent the competitors from competing to the end of the contest?

Just food for thought.
Yes.

That isn't even a question. There is no food to think about.
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Old 1 Jan 2022, 13:09 (Ref:4092085)   #54
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I'm with you re F1 (these days anyway) having a tendency to over-complicate EVERYTHING and it appears having a desire to not "import" known elements from other series.
Two things though (slight pedant warning) -
1. Pitstops were part of Grand Prix racing for a very long time and part of F1 early days too - Fangio's drive at the Nurburgring after a pitstop in 1957 is probably his most feted drive ever.
Pitstops had been a regular and strategiv feature of AOWR, before Fangio became the first F1 driver to intentionally pit for fuel and tyres in the middle of a race, at the 1957 German GP. Though he eventually won, he would arguably have had an easier time by simply avoiding the pitstop altogether, as it was a disaster. The mechanic who removed the rear left wheel, didn't notice the wheel nut had rolled under the car and finding it took nearly half a minute. Fangio left pit road in third place. Nobody tried the strategy again for a very long time and it certainly wasn't a feature of F1 racing during the '60s and '70s. Strategic pitstops only came into F1 in 1982 and were developed by Gordon Murray and the Brabham team and were first introduced at that year's Austrian GP.

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2. There used to be WAY more compounds / constructions for F1 teams to choose from back in the day - teams would then make their own decisions on what suited their car best at each track (can recall times where there were over 10 or so different tyre variations being evaluated during Friday prac) so the current choice of 3 only at each race is actually pretty vanilla.
I don't remember F1 ever having way more compounds for F1 teams to choose from, back in the day. How far back are you going? However, I do remember during the Bridgestone-Goodyear tyre war, manufacturers would bring a mixture of compounds for each circuit, which lead to a number of choices of tyre a driver could make, depending on track temperature and track quality.
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Old 1 Jan 2022, 13:23 (Ref:4092088)   #55
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Originally Posted by bathurst77 View Post
this thread is titled
2022 and beyond... What will be the impact of the new regulations
yet most of the recent posts are yet again rehashing abu dhabi.
Isnt there another thread for that, or is there a rule i missed that all threads are now to be about that
Maybe it's just too soon to try to do anything here other than to rehash, relitigate, etc. anything else but the 2021 Abu Dhabi race and results. It's a valid topic, and should be discussed, but it's unfortunate that it has to take over most every active thread. Especially those that are on totally different topics. I gently tried to redirect above to no avail. I can only hope it changes in March when we will have new things to get upset about.

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Old 1 Jan 2022, 13:40 (Ref:4092089)   #56
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I apologize for misdirecting the thread. I posted it here because it was relevant with any potential changes to the sporting rulers 2022 and beyond, but still should've given it more consideration and post it elsewhere. Sorry.
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Old 1 Jan 2022, 18:17 (Ref:4092111)   #57
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I apologize for misdirecting the thread. I posted it here because it was relevant with any potential changes to the sporting rulers 2022 and beyond, but still should've given it more consideration and post it elsewhere. Sorry.
Not calling anyone out singularly. While I created the thread, I can't control it. My intent was to focus on the new technical and financial regulations, and speculation on the run up to the start of the season. I think the bulk of concerns people have at the moment is around the sporting regulations and how F1 is run from a race control perspective. Which I get and agree with.

Honestly, I don't know where the general topics that came out of the season finale race should go. You could say (and I think the moderators have pushed in this direction) for it to go into the Abu Dhabi race thread. But I think the topic is larger than just that single race. I guess if people want to litigate the specifics of THAT race, then sure, the race thread. If people want to discuss the larger issues (i.e. how to manage restarts, consistency of steward decisions, etc.) then those could either go into the "How to fix F1?" thread or maybe create a new thread specific to what I would generally say is Sporting regulations/Stewards. I would create that thread, but frankly, I don't feed strongly enough or... want to gets involved in the inevitable fight and rehash of 2021 finale! But I think someone should create the thread as the topic (if we can move beyond the Abu Dhabi race) is a good one.

Happy New Year's everyone.

Richard

Last edited by Richard C; 1 Jan 2022 at 18:23.
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Old 1 Jan 2022, 20:28 (Ref:4092122)   #58
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I apologize for misdirecting the thread.
Me too. I was tapping through threads on my phone and replied to wnut without checking what thread I was actually in.
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Old 1 Jan 2022, 21:20 (Ref:4092125)   #59
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Yes.

That isn't even a question. There is no food to think about.
As a fan of speedway (ie Sprintcars) and a spectator at Bob Jane's Thunderdome for many years, not finishing a race under yellow flags has kept me nourished for many years. Sure it is not the fine aged steak of F1, but sometimes a hamburger will do.
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Old 1 Jan 2022, 21:59 (Ref:4092128)   #60
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Pitstops had been a regular and strategiv feature of AOWR, before Fangio became the first F1 driver to intentionally pit for fuel and tyres in the middle of a race, at the 1957 German GP.
Pitstops were also a regular and strategic feature of Grand Prix racing for decades, going right back to the very start, used extensively pre-war for example and Brabham gong to pit stops after a long hiatus, was in reality a reintroduction of that approach.

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I don't remember F1 ever having way more compounds for F1 teams to choose from, back in the day. How far back are you going? However, I do remember during the Bridgestone-Goodyear tyre war, manufacturers would bring a mixture of compounds for each circuit, which lead to a number of choices of tyre a driver could make, depending on track temperature and track quality.
Mid-late 80s (I worked on an F1 team then) we had many to choose from and as you say, could vary the choices from driver to driver, dependant on weather and I think we could still make changes on race day morning - only really locked in the tyres for the race after the morning warm up.
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Old 2 Jan 2022, 08:53 (Ref:4092163)   #61
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ok rule change
no race can finish under yellow, there must be 2 complete green laps. if thee track is not clear after the scheduled laps then the race continues under yellow for extra laps or halted under parc ferme in pit row (no new tyres etc) until track is clear then a 2 lap red flag restart.

If the race absolutely cannot restart weather/lighting/track safety problem, its a red flag finish and regulations apply.
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Old 2 Jan 2022, 09:14 (Ref:4092166)   #62
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Problem with extending the race to go beyond a yellow (as they do in NASCAR) is that F1 cars are fuelled for the race distance and they don't have mid-race refuelling any more.

That means essentially stopping and then restarting races might be the only option when near the scheduled finish to achieve a racing finish. The whole "rebuild the car and fit new tyres" situation under red would need to be looked at too. Your parc ferme idea could be a way to address that B77.
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Old 2 Jan 2022, 09:28 (Ref:4092168)   #63
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Exactly, races have finished under yellow before and quite frankly they shouldn't extend the race for the sake of the 'show'. What they do in NASCAR is fine there. There are too many logistical problems to do it in F1. With refuelling rightly banned it just wouldn't work

I don't think we should add in red flags just for a finish under green either. It's not something F1 really needs. Just get rid of the SC free pass rule and it would make things easier
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Old 2 Jan 2022, 21:45 (Ref:4092242)   #64
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Pitstops were also a regular and strategic feature of Grand Prix racing for decades, going right back to the very start, used extensively pre-war for example and Brabham gong to pit stops after a long hiatus, was in reality a reintroduction of that approach.
Grand Prix races pre-war and post-war in the '50s were much longer, over 3 hours and therefore pitstops were a necessity, particularly for fuel, rather than being strategic. Apart from Fangio's planned stop in the 1957 German GP, the planned pitstop, as part of race winning strategy, didn't become a regular feature of Grand Prix racing until Gordon Murray came up with the idea in 1982.

This video on the history of the pitstop in F1 is worth watching.

https://www.redbull.com/gb-en/films/...f-the-pit-stop

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Mid-late 80s (I worked on an F1 team then) we had many to choose from and as you say, could vary the choices from driver to driver, dependent on weather and I think we could still make changes on race day morning - only really locked in the tyres for the race after the morning warm up.
That's very interesting. Which team?
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Old 3 Jan 2022, 08:28 (Ref:4092278)   #65
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I’ll PM you bj - enjoy my quiet anonymity on here.
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Old 3 Jan 2022, 16:45 (Ref:4092342)   #66
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Apart from Fangio's planned stop in the 1957 German GP, the planned pitstop, as part of race winning strategy, didn't become a regular feature of Grand Prix racing until Gordon Murray came up with the idea in 1982.
so in other words, pit stops as part of a race winning strategy has been part of the sport for more years then it has not been part of the sport?
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Old 4 Jan 2022, 03:38 (Ref:4092413)   #67
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I actually dont understand why there is the "let lapped cars past" rule.

If you are a lap or more down, you are given a free boost back up lap. So before the f c yellow, you were 2.5 minutes (or whatever a lap plus is) behind the leader
Then there is a safety car, and you are given free kick, to run around retake your lap and get on the back of the pack, and are now maybe only 10 - 15 seconds behind the leader.

maybe they need 2 or 3 safety cars, evenly spaced around the track, so you are held in 3 equidistant groups, and nobody loses or gains a whole lap.
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Old 4 Jan 2022, 08:00 (Ref:4092423)   #68
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I actually dont understand why there is the "let lapped cars past" rule.

If you are a lap or more down, you are given a free boost back up lap. So before the f c yellow, you were 2.5 minutes (or whatever a lap plus is) behind the leader
Then there is a safety car, and you are given free kick, to run around retake your lap and get on the back of the pack, and are now maybe only 10 - 15 seconds behind the leader.

maybe they need 2 or 3 safety cars, evenly spaced around the track, so you are held in 3 equidistant groups, and nobody loses or gains a whole lap.
Make the lapped cars go to the pits... and stay there... and close the pitlane... and wait for the whole field to go past
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Old 4 Jan 2022, 11:21 (Ref:4092442)   #69
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so in other words, pit stops as part of a race winning strategy has been part of the sport for more years then it has not been part of the sport?

Not if Grand Prix racing pre-war and immediately after the war is taken into account.
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Old 4 Jan 2022, 11:31 (Ref:4092443)   #70
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I think it is fairly well accepted that Formula 1 started with the 1946 Turin Grand Prix (1 Sep 46)?

Grands Prix prior to that were not F1 races.

I know it is pedantic, but given that this thread is about the 2022 F1 regulations, it makes sense to view the first set of regulations as being the new formula agreed upon during 1946....
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Old 4 Jan 2022, 20:16 (Ref:4092494)   #71
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It baffles me why common sense doesn’t prevail more when it comes to designing a set of aero rules. This recent phenomenon of insisting on having the front wing reach across the entire width of the wheel track just defies logic. Sure having that might work wonders for the aero itself, but one small knock in a wheel banging session and it’s “bye bye front wing”. If they were positioned more in-board like they were in the 90s and earlier, you wouldn’t have that problem.
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Old 4 Jan 2022, 23:21 (Ref:4092505)   #72
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Well we'll have to see if the new aero rules do enough to make the racing closer. Certainly they should look better without things like bargeboards, which should have gone a lot sooner. All I will say it is a step in the right direction at the very least and we'll see if more work needs doing. I agree though that front wings don't need to be so big, but front wings have always been vulnerable to damage tbh
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Old 6 Jan 2022, 06:17 (Ref:4092653)   #73
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Exactly, races have finished under yellow before and quite frankly they shouldn't extend the race for the sake of the 'show'. What they do in NASCAR is fine there. There are too many logistical problems to do it in F1. With refuelling rightly banned it just wouldn't work

I don't think we should add in red flags just for a finish under green either. It's not something F1 really needs. Just get rid of the SC free pass rule and it would make things easier
Are you certain that in series where races are extended due to laps run under the safety car that they all have pit stops allowing competitors to refuel?

A quick check would suggest otherwise.

Refueling is not a prerequisite for avoiding safety car finishes. Filling the car with a reasonable amount of fuel to take into account such an eventuality however is.
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Old 6 Jan 2022, 07:46 (Ref:4092654)   #74
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It would be another tactic and dice for team managers to roll. how much extra fuel to put in, gamble on extra laps vs weight
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Old 6 Jan 2022, 13:29 (Ref:4092680)   #75
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I suppose, but I don’t think that a car losing out because it can’t finish is a good look. We could all understand why, but it’s not really what people want.

It’s all about the unintended consequences. I suppose we could introduce some competitors must still have a certain amount of fuel left at the end unless it goes to overtime. Then we can complain bout over complication instead when a race finishers normally, but a car is DSQ.

And we wonder why we moan.

I’m not sure what the fascination is with having to finish under green. Ah, so it can be a show.

It is primarily a sport. Let the distance be the distance.
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