[WEC] Rebellion Racing

[Acid09]

Well, speaks volumes about the WEC, playing second fiddle there is still more attractive than running on top in lesser series.

[TF110]

Anywhere else would be a step back imo. Even though they could possibly be able to fight for for wins in imsa, would they even be welcome? Would they have the right equipment?

[Deleted]

Going to dumb'n'spec LMP2 would've been boring, I mean yes LMP1-P/L/N-C/whatever sub-trophy-challenge is essentially pointless in WEC and sure there are billion problems right now but at least they're actual tech driven racing cars with respectable ideology and not idiotic restrictions. It's the last standing "free zone" in ACO racing besides the hybrids. And scaling to one car in 6 hour races is just what I've been calling on for ages now from Rebellion, to give greater focus for things that actually matter.

[TF110]

Your comment seems kinda conflicting imo. You suggest they drop to 1 car for a reason you feel is nearly useless. I don't know what the big deal is with you and these subclasses There has to be some type of incentive for them to run unless they can actually compete for overall wins.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TF110

Your comment seems kinda conflicting imo. You suggest they drop to 1 car for a reason you feel is nearly useless. I don't know what the big deal is with you and these subclasses There has to be some type of incentive for them to run unless they can actually compete for overall wins.

Just as in 2013, 1 car in post-LM makes sense considering there's nothing to achieve and it saves money for better prepared pre-LM campaign the following year. Plus now the needed upgrades. They really should rent Paul Ricard for 30 hour test next spring, that is what I really want to see happening and have for some time with the lack of reliability in the current package.

They didn't need incentives in 2011 and prior and were happy to be there, and back then their chances of overall winning were just as bad as now (after coming of Pug and diesels anyway). Of course they're not gonna say NO to ACO if they can get giant trophy and press release out of it for free just by being there but winning that sub class is not why they're there. If it were they wouldn't talk of potentially abandoning it for ELMS or whatever and there wouldn't only be 3 competitors in it. If ACO wants them to win something it should be overall in regional series, not in 6 hour race where AER failure brings you crawling to 19th overall place to win the 'class'.

Anyway this is again just repeating same record. I'm just happy they sticked to the LMP1 Oreca and we'll see it at Le Mans next year (should encourage CLM to stick too), there's some unfinished business. Entry wise it doesn't look too good for 2018 (again) but maybe Courage or whomever gets their act together

[chernaudi]

Thing is ironically that the Oreca 05 has had more aero development on it than the R-One has, and under the skin and the skin itself they're both clearly close relatives. But the 05 has more external bodywork upgrades than the R-One and both a better sprint and LM aero package. Some of this can be blamed on both Oreca and Rebellion, but the issue does feed itself on both ends, probably due to money and the incentive (or lack there of) to spend it.

[templer]

Ten-Tenths is one of the few forums to claims to have serious posters.
But is really hard to follow and read what some users post here for a kind of bull****. They have for sure never talked a team member of ByKolles or Rebellion.
They think do more testing and do more developments and the cars will be a lot better.
Have you ever thought about that there is a major difference if 120 to 200 people work on a car with a budget between 100 to 220 million euro and 15 to 30 people and a budget of 4 to 10 million euro.
Rebellion and Bykolles did all they can do to make progress. Rebellion concentrate this season to make their car reliable while ByKolles try to eliminate their design flaws. But both teams can only do one thing after the next. They don't have the ressources to develop several elements on the car and go testing.
ByKolles has made a large step forward with the new aero on the Ring and was clearly faster than Rebellion.

You hit on the team for three fires. All there caused by troubles with the AER engine and also Rebellion run into engine trouble at the Ring once more.But you blame the teams. What can they do? Nothing !!!

Btw Bykolles is considering an engine switch for 2017.

I am glad to have two strong private teams in LMP1 which hold up the flag. Both teams will run in 2017 with further improved cars.

Take your hats up guys and show some respect to this small teams. They took up the challenge and fight while others like Onroak, Gibson or Strakka don't try it. Large respect to ByKolles and Rebellion.

You really would more help this teams by supporting them then talking pure nonsens !!!!

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Thing is ironically that the Oreca 05 has had more aero development on it than the R-One has, and under the skin and the skin itself they're both clearly close relatives. But the 05 has more external bodywork upgrades than the R-One and both a better sprint and LM aero package. Some of this can be blamed on both Oreca and Rebellion, but the issue does feed itself on both ends, probably due to money and the incentive (or lack there of) to spend it.

Well the 05 LMP2 is year newer than 04/R-One LMP1 (and the 2015-LMP2 regs weren't as dumbified as the 2017-LMP2 regs will be), so of course if no-one bothers to do some make-up on the elder sister, it's gonna have more wrinkles

IMO whatever the new upgrades may or may not achieve, I think reliability should be 75% focus still and the performance only really to counter compensate for the power increase of new spec LMP2. Unfortunately as Oreca is prepping the 07 supply and fiddling with their other ongoing projects, the update process next spring might just be as tediously slow as it was in 2015 when the Toyota was being switched to AER maybe Rebellion should increase their in-house engineering more and rely less on Oreca. IDK the extent of their partnership fully.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Just as in 2013, 1 car in post-LM makes sense considering there's nothing to achieve and it saves money for better prepared pre-LM campaign the following year. Plus now the needed upgrades. They really should rent Paul Ricard for 30 hour test next spring, that is what I really want to see happening and have for some time with the lack of reliability in the current package.

They didn't need incentives in 2011 and prior and were happy to be there, and back then their chances of overall winning were just as bad as now (after coming of Pug and diesels anyway). Of course they're not gonna say NO to ACO if they can get giant trophy and press release out of it for free just by being there but winning that sub class is not why they're there. If it were they wouldn't talk of potentially abandoning it for ELMS or whatever and there wouldn't only be 3 competitors in it. If ACO wants them to win something it should be overall in regional series, not in 6 hour race where AER failure brings you crawling to 19th overall place to win the 'class'.

Anyway this is again just repeating same record. I'm just happy they sticked to the LMP1 Oreca and we'll see it at Le Mans next year (should encourage CLM to stick too), there's some unfinished business. Entry wise it doesn't look too good for 2018 (again) but maybe Courage or whomever gets their act together

You continue to say "put them in regional series" with no regard to the participants already there challenging for wins. You said it yourself, they want to be in lmp1 with the big boys. So why should the aco screw up the huge elms grids for one or two teams? Your logic just baffles me. In 2011 there were two private teams that stayed on the next year. The wec would have folded if Toyota didn't jump in. You think the 'regional' series would be the lmp1 privateer answer? The class either dies or it gets better rules, and fast.

[truebeliever]

Originally Posted by templer

Ten-Tenths is one of the few forums to claims to have serious posters.
But is really hard to follow and read what some users post here for a kind of bull****. They have for sure never talked a team member of ByKolles or Rebellion.
They think do more testing and do more developments and the cars will be a lot better.
Have you ever thought about that there is a major difference if 120 to 200 people work on a car with a budget between 100 to 220 million euro and 15 to 30 people and a budget of 4 to 10 million euro.
Rebellion and Bykolles did all they can do to make progress. Rebellion concentrate this season to make their car reliable while ByKolles try to eliminate their design flaws. But both teams can only do one thing after the next. They don't have the ressources to develop several elements on the car and go testing.
ByKolles has made a large step forward with the new aero on the Ring and was clearly faster than Rebellion.

You hit on the team for three fires. All there caused by troubles with the AER engine and also Rebellion run into engine trouble at the Ring once more.But you blame the teams. What can they do? Nothing !!!

Btw Bykolles is considering an engine switch for 2017.

I am glad to have two strong private teams in LMP1 which hold up the flag. Both teams will run in 2017 with further improved cars.

Take your hats up guys and show some respect to this small teams. They took up the challenge and fight while others like Onroak, Gibson or Strakka don't try it. Large respect to ByKolles and Rebellion.

You really would more help this teams by supporting them then talking pure nonsens !!!!

If you were to do your homework, you would discover all the Kolles fires, were caused by team realated preparations issues, rather than any problems with the AER engine.

Also, perhaps ask both teams what is ther engine budget? I would not mind betting, both are only wanting the "bargain basement" egine deal, and I do not think either Rebellion or Kolles do much in the way of proper testing? So as always in life, what you pay, is what you get!

Perhaps Kolles is changing engines because he has found a cheaper deal, l or maybe AER doesn't want to deal with anymore

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TF110

You continue to say "put them in regional series" with no regard to the participants already there challenging for wins. You said it yourself, they want to be in lmp1 with the big boys. So why should the aco screw up the huge elms grids for one or two teams? Your logic just baffles me. In 2011 there were two private teams that stayed on the next year. The wec would have folded if Toyota didn't jump in. You think the 'regional' series would be the lmp1 privateer answer? The class either dies or it gets better rules, and fast.

I have answered to this same question ~50 times in the past few years, to multiple members here. I'm sorry but I really can't bother to repeat it all again in length.

Let's just agree to disagree then.

[templer]

Originally Posted by truebeliever

If you were to do your homework, you would discover all the Kolles fires, were caused by team realated preparations issues, rather than any problems with the AER engine.

Also, perhaps ask both teams what is ther engine budget? I would not mind betting, both are only wanting the "bargain basement" egine deal, and I do not think either Rebellion or Kolles do much in the way of proper testing? So as always in life, what you pay, is what you get!

Perhaps Kolles is changing engines because he has found a cheaper deal, l or maybe AER doesn't want to deal with anymore

Do you first your own homework. The engine problems are related to the some changes on the AER engine run by ByKolles for 2016 with the demand generating more power.

If ByKolles would be to stupid to do do their preparation work, so tell me please why Rebellion had also engine troubles at LM and the Ring.

First think and then write, guy

[TheMightyM]

I’ll say this about Rebellion, they seem to have gotten rather good at crying wolf. (For non-native English speakers, the expression is explained here.)

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by templer

Do you first your own homework. The engine problems are related to the some changes on the AER engine run by ByKolles for 2016 with the demand generating more power.

So they 'improved' the engine but instead it went sizzle. That would not be an improvement in anyone's eyes and would call that poor planning/construction on their part. What good is more power if you aren't fast and catch fire? At least Jon Field turned the wick up on the Judd and could pass the Audis before the tires and engine finally gave out. Kolles was at the bottom of the timing chart most of the race, there's no prize for one fast-adjacent lap.

And no, that's nothing against the team members. The boss has left a bad taste for many racing fans so if it makes it to the end of a race we're amazed and otherwise it's a dismissed entry we wouldn't miss. But we'd still hope the hard working team members found another place to go when it finally leaves WEC like F1.

[truebeliever]

Originally Posted by templer

Do you first your own homework. The engine problems are related to the some changes on the AER engine run by ByKolles for 2016 with the demand generating more power.

If ByKolles would be to stupid to do do their preparation work, so tell me please why Rebellion had also engine troubles at LM and the Ring.

First think and then write, guy

Check first, before you critize people, especially as it would appear you do not know.

[Deleted]

There's Kolles thread for CLM discussion...

[Juntos]

I thought we installed parental blocking software on all our computers as no one is discussing why Rebellion dropped their all-star entry! Budget cut he says!

[Deleted]

The "all-star" squad has been getting their arses kicked by the "B-car" all year. And those guys probably want to concentrate on that electric single seater series or whatever anyway

[chernaudi]

Rebellion are considering dumping the AER engine in favor of the Nissan turbo V6, or more likely the Gibson 4.5 V8 or Judd 5.5 V10.

[Starfish Primer]

How would perform a DPi engine? Or are they too fuel inefficient?

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Starfish Primer

How would perform a DPi engine? Or are they too fuel inefficient?

Heavier too?

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Rebellion are considering dumping the AER engine in favor of the Nissan turbo V6, or more likely the Gibson 4.5 V8 or Judd 5.5 V10.

Yes the AER needs to go. I don't mind it with CLM because it'd be nice to still have some unique engines in the privateer realms, and also AER at least does have some impressive power figures, but for Rebellion I feel they really need to ditch it as fast as possible. Also fast because the last time Toyota was dumped for AER it took forever from Oreca to mod it into the chassis, and same probably would/will happen with this possible new switch.

Nissan would probably be the safest choice given the fact that their engines are generally alright and they probably would also hand some side money in order to brand giant NISSAN stickers on the side of the Orecas - we know they want to have some presence in the category already.

Zytek, same thing, reasonably safe, however they might have some supply limitations given how busy they are going to be in the cashing-in dealings in LMP2.

Judd is the least likely route the way I see it, and the least "fashionable" too, however it's the one I'd actually want to see. V10 is sexy. Also Rebellion had history with Judd(-BMW) prior Toyota days.

[Juntos]

Do they really need to change engine every two years?

[chernaudi]

If it's junk like the AER engine is proving to be, then yes. The ball did get rolling when TMG/Toyota stopped selling them engines at the end of 2014, though. Problem is that the TMG engine was an underperformer in the fuel flow regs (TMG just took the air restrictors off and added the fuel flow meters). They should've just took the Judd or Gibson engines when they were first offered.

[knighty]

Crikey, some damming assessments of the AER engine on this thread!...... to be honest I have lost track, but the Rebellions and Kolles cars do seem to have some continuing niggles that should have been fixed ages ago.

On one side of the coin, please be mindful that this is a privateer engine and they are probably being pushed very hard by the customers to close the gap to the works cars, and when it starts to go bang, people will point fingers at each other.......not a nice place to be......but on the other side of the coin, neither Kolles or Rebellion have spent enough money to make a credible LMP1 privateer performance and to cut a long story short they should have stayed in LMP2

But if Rebellion want to ditch the AER engine and adopt the 3.0L Nissan-Cosworth V6 from the defunct LMP1 car, in principle I think this will be a very good move, but I can foresee 2 big hurdles.

1) Rebellion will probably ask Oreca to do the chassis re-work to accept the Nissan motor, consider Hughes DeCunac is well in bed with Toyota, I can imagine this will be about as welcome as a turd in a punch bowl to have the Nissan LMP1 engine floating around a team heavily associated with Toyota.......awkward......personally I think its a good excuse and timing to jump ship to a Ligier LMP1 chassis.

2) The ACO will probably view the Nissan engine as a works effort, or at least try to entice them to be, therefore Rebellion will need the full KERS system, which never existed at Nissan as the dopey flywheel system was a POS which was a main factor in the package never working.......but a company like Zytek could probably do something quite quick for them.

hmmmm......will be interesting to see how this one pans out.......I suspect there is a lot of haggling going on behind the scenes between, Rebellion, AER, Nissan, Oreca, Toyota, ACO.......what a mucky 6 way *****-fest that will be