IMSA: USCR 2018

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by AoB Special Stage

I just want to remind everyone that the Courage LC7X series evolved into the Oreca 01, which formed the basis for the 03, which Oreca redeveloped into the closed top 05, and now into the 07 (returning to the low nose of the 03).

The Courage LC7X also became the ARX-01 series then the ARX-03 series. And that's not even mentioning that the FLM09 is also derived from the thing.

I had just mentioned this the other day. Makes me wonder if HPD will do the bare minimum of changes IMSA will require of them given the aero is so close to what they previously did well with.

[YZFrider]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

To my recollection in IMSA competition, HPD bumped up the HR28 to 3.5L form. Now I do not know the size difference on turbo chargers.

Chris

Unless I'm mistaken isn't the 3.5 lump is from the NSX GT3. And if so I thought I read that the 3.5 engine had DOHC comapred to the SOHC of the 2.8??? A different bank angle too I think.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by YZFrider

Unless I'm mistaken isn't the 3.5 lump is from the NSX GT3. And if so I thought I read that the 3.5 engine had DOHC comapred to the SOHC of the 2.8??? A different bank angle too I think.

Nope.

LMP2 Specifications
Honda HR28TT V6 Engine
Engine Type
Aluminum alloy, twin-turbocharged, fuel-injected V6
Displacement
2.8 liters
Valve Train
Single overhead camshaft, four valves per cylinder
Crankshaft
Alloy steel
Pistons
Forged aluminum, low-friction coatings
Connecting Rods
Machined alloy steel
Engine Management
HPD/McLaren
Ignition System
Digital inductive
Lubrication
Dry sump system
Cooling
Single mechanical water pump
Transmission
HPD-Hewland six-speed sequential, paddle-operated
Fuel
E10 100-101 octane gasoline, 10% ethanol

Honda HR35TT V6 Engine

• Engine Type Aluminum alloy, twin-turbocharged, direct fuel-injected V6
• Displacement3.5 liters
• Valve TrainSingle overhead camshaft, four valves per cylinder
• Crankshaft Alloy steel
• PistonsForged aluminum, low-friction coatings
• Connecting RodsMachined alloy steel
• Engine ManagementHPD/McLaren
• Ignition SystemDigital inductive
• Lubrication Dry sump system
• Cooling Single mechanical water pump
• Fuel E10 100-101 octane gasoline, 10% ethanol

http://hpd.honda.com/%5Ccontent%5Cme...cification.pdf


http://blog.hpd.honda.com/2014/02/ho...l#.WWV55ulGlEY


L.P.

[chernaudi]

The AR35TT is just an Acura badged version of the HR35TT 3.5 V6 that was an enlarged version of the LMP2 HR28TT. The 3.5 was exclusive to IMSA in 2016 and is being redeveloped for DPI.

In other words, it's the old J series sedan/minivan/SUV engine, not the NSX engine.

[AoB Special Stage]

Did no one else read that article I linked earlier?!?

PS The NSX uses the Z30A engine.

[chernaudi]

The engine did just fine in the Ligier last year, and should do well in the Oreca when you consider that JDC have a pro-am driver line up and a bare bone stock ACO spec Oreca and nearly won the last two races.

Only concern is can Honda get an extra 50 or so BHP out of the engine? If Cadillac can do it with a pushrod V8, no reason why HPD can't. And it's not like the engine is being handled by the guys who designed the horrible F1 engine.

[Makaze]

Used HR35tt(J-Series 60 degree V SOHC V6) because it is rock solid.(already developed) AR35tt is just has another year of development since racing in 2016.(they have the extra 50hp)

Bodywork and Chassis development(after the first chassis development by Oreca) in house at HPD.(Wirth not involved)

The NSX engine was a last minute decision so they sub it out to Cosworth(Honda designed, Cosworth cast) to make.Do not want to risk the first season with a new engine(just look at Honda in F1).
Better to go with a well tested engine the first season.

[S griffin]

I hope Acura do well, they are a great name and it seems a lot of preparation has gone into this

[Matt]

http://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/ad...ure-direction/

If we go straight up by this article, which is silly I know, but just for fun, we'd be looking at 16 full season P entries for next year minimum.

1x WTR
2x AXR
2x Acura
2x Mazda
2x Nissan
2x JDC
1x SoD
1x PR1
1x PerfTech
1x BAR1
1-2x Starworks(lol wont happen)

[MaskedRacer]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I hope Acura do well, they are a great name and it seems a lot of preparation has gone into this

I have no doubt. Daytona will instantly be a Acura and Cadillac battle for the DPI win.

[MaskedRacer]

Originally Posted by Matt

http://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/ad...ure-direction/

If we go straight up by this article, which is silly I know, but just for fun, we'd be looking at 16 full season P entries for next year minimum.

1x WTR
2x AXR
2x Acura
2x Mazda
2x Nissan
2x JDC
1x SoD
1x PR1
1x PerfTech
1x BAR1
1-2x Starworks(lol wont happen)

As a fan of GT racing primarily. I hope that happens. More likely we can get an extra all GT race or two on the 2018 calendar.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Matt

http://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/ad...ure-direction/

If we go straight up by this article, which is silly I know, but just for fun, we'd be looking at 16 full season P entries for next year minimum.

1x WTR
2x AXR
2x Acura
2x Mazda
2x Nissan
2x JDC
1x SoD
1x PR1
1x PerfTech
1x BAR1
1-2x Starworks(lol wont happen)

That would be a healthy grid, but I expect 10-12 on the full season grid realistically.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Matt

http://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/ad...ure-direction/

If we go straight up by this article, which is silly I know, but just for fun, we'd be looking at 16 full season P entries for next year minimum.

1x WTR
2x AXR
2x Acura
2x Mazda
2x Nissan
2x JDC
1x SoD
1x PR1
1x PerfTech
1x BAR1
1-2x Starworks(lol wont happen)

quite unlikely a second oreca 07 for JDC, maybe just daytona with oreca support. PR1 impossible to predict so far, they basically use the car to sell seats race by race. Same about perftech and bar1.
Starworks, if am I not wrong have 2 riley, not the real deal so far

[Matt]

I'm in contact with someone who works for JDC on an almost daily basis. It's likely.

[chernaudi]

From the original article that examined the DPI/LMP2 split, it seemed like JDC were in favor of the split, but I wonder if Watkins Glen and Mosport changed the mind of team owner John Church, who now says that he's indifferent to a split? Mind you, their am driver is basically a pro in all but name (similar to the silver vs gold controversies that have plagued LMP2 in the WEC), considering that he almost put it on pole at Mosport and was leading the race at one point on merit.

Not to mention that JDC want to run Le Mans if they get the chance to, and they can just rent an Oreca for that, since they already have a partnership with Oreca.

VFR is still in favor of split, but again, that seems like sour grapes/buyer's remorse for choosing the Riley. Granted, the Mazda share the same tub, but DPIs are still allowed development/performance upgrades that the LMP2s can't have under the IMSA/ACO agreement. Of course, outside of reliability, allowing such upgrades in a BOP class is pretty stupid in my opinion. Then again, the Mazda was really no where until the last 2-3 races.

But my message there to VFR is that it's an open market. Yes, it's not as open as some would like (I myself think that the four chassis limit is stupid and that the market should determine who succeeds and who fails), but there's nothing stopping Troy Flis from buying an Oreca or a Cadillac DPI aside from his own wallet. If he wants to pull the trigger, he shouldn't wait for IMSA to make a decision--that for 2018 at least seems to be basically decided--for him to ditch the Riley.

Granted, the team will still have to learn the new car and such, and time has to be allotted for that, but they can race the Riley for a race or two until they can debut the new car later in the year. Besides, I think the only DPI races left for this season are Road America, Laguna Seca, and PLM/Road Atlanta.

[MaskedRacer]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

From the original article that examined the DPI/LMP2 split, it seemed like JDC were in favor of the split, but I wonder if Watkins Glen and Mosport changed the mind of team owner John Church, who now says that he's indifferent to a split? Mind you, their am driver is basically a pro in all but name (similar to the silver vs gold controversies that have plagued LMP2 in the WEC), considering that he almost put it on pole at Mosport and was leading the race at one point on merit.

Not to mention that JDC want to run Le Mans if they get the chance to, and they can just rent an Oreca for that, since they already have a partnership with Oreca.

VFR is still in favor of split, but again, that seems like sour grapes/buyer's remorse for choosing the Riley. Granted, the Mazda share the same tub, but DPIs are still allowed development/performance upgrades that the LMP2s can't have under the IMSA/ACO agreement. Of course, outside of reliability, allowing such upgrades in a BOP class is pretty stupid in my opinion. Then again, the Mazda was really no where until the last 2-3 races.

But my message there to VFR is that it's an open market. Yes, it's not as open as some would like (I myself think that the four chassis limit is stupid and that the market should determine who succeeds and who fails), but there's nothing stopping Troy Flis from buying an Oreca or a Cadillac DPI aside from his own wallet. If he wants to pull the trigger, he shouldn't wait for IMSA to make a decision--that for 2018 at least seems to be basically decided--for him to ditch the Riley.

Granted, the team will still have to learn the new car and such, and time has to be allotted for that, but they can race the Riley for a race or two until they can debut the new car later in the year. Besides, I think the only DPI races left for this season are Road America, Laguna Seca, and PLM/Road Atlanta.

I would think so. Church also dissed LMPC big time, which in turn I think is a opinion of the lack of need of a pro/am prototype category in the WeatherTech series. Which I agree with. LMP3's seem to do just fine in their own support series right now. As we see in ELMS it is bad enough to mix LMP3 cars with GTE Ams. Imagine LMP3 with GTLM/GTE Pros = not good.

At the Le Mans Cup race, the winning GT3 car the Aston Martin was challenging for the top 5 overall in a field of 25 LMP3's I think.

[JLGarcia]

Originally Posted by canaglia

PR1 impossible to predict so far, they basically use the car to sell seats race by race.

Performance Tech has a steady, stable customer. The only question is whether they're turned off by the cost increase of moving up.

Starworks, if am I not wrong have 2 riley, not the real deal so far

I don't believe he ever took delivery of the first one, let alone two.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Matt

I'm in contact with someone who works for JDC on an almost daily basis. It's likely.

It would be really great. Don't know if they will use one car for the glory and the other one for customers, but won't be bad an oreca full season support making it some kind of official team as g-drive and ESM was for onroak some time ago.

[Kimi7]

Originally Posted by MaskedRacer

I would think so. Church also dissed LMPC big time, which in turn I think is a opinion of the lack of need of a pro/am prototype category in the WeatherTech series. Which I agree with. LMP3's seem to do just fine in their own support series right now. As we see in ELMS it is bad enough to mix LMP3 cars with GTE Ams. Imagine LMP3 with GTLM/GTE Pros = not good.

At the Le Mans Cup race, the winning GT3 car the Aston Martin was challenging for the top 5 overall in a field of 25 LMP3's I think.

PC is already a somewhat difficult sell as evident by the grid size over the last few years. Now you would basically be offering customers the same thing(the chance to drive in a second tier prototype class that cant compete for overall wins and gets little attention and TV time) for close to double the cost. While the cars are possibly more attractive to customers because they are sexier, faster, safer etc. they are also more physical, more expensive to crash, more complicated in terms of things like traction control. I just highly doubt there are too many ams with $2m+ that would be interested in spending it this way. When you say there is a chance to win daytona or sebring overall, it is much more attractive, even though there are probably still very few potential customers (capable of driving the car reasonably and willing to spend 7 figures)

I think IMSA will have the best product when there is a reasonable chance for very very good ams like Goikhberg to be competitive so that we have maybe 5 good pro am lineups, and then 10-12 dpis. This way you are keeping a certain standard for the level of professionalism and the series presents itself well, but you are not fully reliant on manufacturers

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Kimi7

PC is already a somewhat difficult sell as evident by the grid size over the last few years. Now you would basically be offering customers the same thing(the chance to drive in a second tier prototype class that cant compete for overall wins and gets little attention and TV time) for close to double the cost. While the cars are possibly more attractive to customers because they are sexier, faster, safer etc. they are also more physical, more expensive to crash, more complicated in terms of things like traction control. I just highly doubt there are too many ams with $2m+ that would be interested in spending it this way. When you say there is a chance to win daytona or sebring overall, it is much more attractive, even though there are probably still very few potential customers (capable of driving the car reasonably and willing to spend 7 figures)

I think IMSA will have the best product when there is a reasonable chance for very very good ams like Goikhberg to be competitive so that we have maybe 5 good pro am lineups, and then 10-12 dpis. This way you are keeping a certain standard for the level of professionalism and the series presents itself well, but you are not fully reliant on manufacturers

Pretty much nail on the head.








L.P.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Kimi7

PC is already a somewhat difficult sell as evident by the grid size over the last few years. Now you would basically be offering customers the same thing(the chance to drive in a second tier prototype class that cant compete for overall wins and gets little attention and TV time) for close to double the cost. While the cars are possibly more attractive to customers because they are sexier, faster, safer etc. they are also more physical, more expensive to crash, more complicated in terms of things like traction control. I just highly doubt there are too many ams with $2m+ that would be interested in spending it this way. When you say there is a chance to win daytona or sebring overall, it is much more attractive, even though there are probably still very few potential customers (capable of driving the car reasonably and willing to spend 7 figures)

I think IMSA will have the best product when there is a reasonable chance for very very good ams like Goikhberg to be competitive so that we have maybe 5 good pro am lineups, and then 10-12 dpis. This way you are keeping a certain standard for the level of professionalism and the series presents itself well, but you are not fully reliant on manufacturers

I agree with most, but not traction control. Yes traction control is an added complication, but it's one they tried to add to PC and failed massively. The TC they added didn't have a yaw sensor, so as Mowlem so kindly put it, it was "useless as a traction control system". So all they did was spend money, add in a useless feature, and give the am drivers a false sense of security that a TC would save them.

The TC on a modern LMP2 would actually be an argument for getting more ams in the series.

But otherwise, I do agree. I also don't see what splitting it achieves. Are you then going to unleash the DPi performance? Because you'll just end up having to BoP Mazda, and potentially Nissan up there...and Mazda might lose a lot of engines doing that. Or do you BoP The LMP2s down? Not sure that'd go down well.

Prototype class is awesome. It doesn't need changed.

[Damian Baldi]

I don't like the idea of a split. First because it creates confusion and is more difficult to sell to the public. Second because the next step would be allow changes in the cars (I mean in the PRO class), and if that door would open, there will be two new problems, rising costs and the lost of full compatibility with the WEC P2.

It should remain as is, race after race the cars are more equal, and it is just a question of team management and to have good drivers.

The current PC teams maybe should look to the LMP3 races.

[MaskedRacer]

Originally Posted by Damian Baldi

I don't like the idea of a split. First because it creates confusion and is more difficult to sell to the public. Second because the next step would be allow changes in the cars (I mean in the PRO class), and if that door would open, there will be two new problems, rising costs and the lost of full compatibility with the WEC P2.

It should remain as is, race after race the cars are more equal, and it is just a question of team management and to have good drivers.

The current PC teams maybe should look to the LMP3 races.

I hope they will consider GTD, while Acura and Lexus look at GTLM. BMW is going to be GTE compliant. So there is room for IMSA to give somebody a waiver to run GTLM with a modified GT3 which is what the BMW M6 is.

[chernaudi]

Only way right now a split will make sense is only if DPI gets a make over into being IMSA's version of LMP1 privateer as far as performance, and/or they get a massive amount of LMP2 pro-am teams. Even JDC is a borderline all pro team in reality based on both drivers performance being equal to each other.

Neither really make sense unless that's what the market wants. And right now, most of the teams seem to be happy with the way things are on the whole. IMSA know that you don't want to alienate your customers. Be it teams or fans. Most of the LMPC teams seem to be happy to move to DPI/LMP2 as is, or go into GTD. I know that there's some dissenters, but only one of them has gone on record saying now they seem to feel it's in their interest to have an all pro and a pro-am LMP class. The other is just PO'd that they made the wrong choice on the car that they're racing.

If the market wants a split, then split the classes. If not, leave it alone until such a time happens. My only spot of bother/confusion is the allowance of DPI teams to make performance upgrades outside of BOP, especially when BOP is supposed to make the field roughly balanced. IMO, that's stupid, but there's gotta be a reason why IMSA's going that route.

[Matt]

None of the DPi's are officially homologated yet, that's why.