What is Aston Martin up to?

[Speed-King]

Kinda related: Could Muscle Milk fit the Vantage GT2's V8 into the Lola and race it in P2 if ALMS decides to kill off P1 for next year?

[NightStalk3r]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

Because the V12 wouldn't be allowed under a 'new rules' car...if they went that route they could focus on improving the engine without worrying about the rest of the car. Too logical?

The logical option would be to ditch the I6 and come up with a V8 or even a V6.

[MitchZ06]

The chassis is obviously sound enough so putting that on ice for next year and throwing development bucks at the engine in a proven chassis modified to the new regs would be the route I'd go. And developing a V8 or V6 is a good idea but isn't this I6 meant to be going in their road cars? (an I6 of some sort anyway).

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Kinda related: Could Muscle Milk fit the Vantage GT2's V8 into the Lola and race it in P2 if ALMS decides to kill of P1 for next year?

Probably, but the AMR Lola would probably not be cost-capped. Whether that will make a difference or not with the ALMS rules, who knows. Also, the ALMS may continue the grandfathering of the V12 even if the ACO goes in a different direction. That point is still very unclear to me at the moment.

[Acid09]

I hate to say "I told you so" but I did.. the AMR-One with the six-cylinder engine will never race again... the design is fundamentally flawed, regardless of what outside consulting firms claim (what a waste of money).

I really hope Aston Martin has learned their lesson and is already working on something new for 2012, they need to show up with a car that's at least somewhat tested and proven, otherwise their racing reputation will be in the crapper for years to come.

[Fogelhund]

Stick with GT, the deep end is too deep for them in LMP. At least they can hope to build a somewhat competitive GT car, and BoP can help from there.

[chernaudi]

It's not like we couldn't see this coming--Dagys said that this might happen weeks ago, fans have been asking for it to happen, and the AMR-One, to put it bluntly, has been a bit of a disaster.

The chassis doesn't seem to be bad (aside from some conservative aero), but the engine is basically junk and has been the source of never-ending problems. It seems that AMR has pushed the engined to it's limits trying to make it light, which the longer and narrower something is, the less ridgid it is in torsion, which is why the inline 8 went out of fashion after World War II, as Ford had a proven V8 design, and anybody who built high performance V12 aircraft engines during WWII picked up some helpful hints for V6s, V8s, and V12s of their own for road and racing use.

On Mulsanne's Corner's Facebook page, it's been reported that the I6 in it's current form is fatally flawed and at best a major redesign is necessary to resolve it's issues.

And, of course, AMR went with an open car when everyone else and his brother among the big teams espeically went with the closed cockpit option. It's been claimed that it was to save money. But allow me to ask this: is it cheaper to design and build your own car or buy a chassis off the shelf and modify it to your own needs.

I think that the AMR-One was just a case of too ambitious, too much, too fast for Prodrive and AMR. Prodrive never built an LMP1 or similar type car on their own before (and building successful GT1 cars is a much different ball game than a prototype), and Aston Martin itself is a small car maker who doesn't have the resources that Audi and Peugeot have.

You have to admire AMR for their drive to be different, but taking a "not invented here" approach isn't always a good idea.

[porsche91722]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Stick with GT, the deep end is too deep for them in LMP. At least they can hope to build a somewhat competitive GT car, and BoP can help from there.

I've never understood why they didn't just stick with GT. After all, it is their bread and butter. Whatever the future holds for the AMR- One, it's never going to be a real challenger in LMP1. Maybe only in this mythical Petrol class that keeps on being mentioned, but even that would be a stretch. This whole AMR-1 project must have been a massive PR disaster for the Aston Martin group. The masses tend to remember recent failures, rather than the great success they have achieved in the past.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Stick with GT, the deep end is too deep for them in LMP. At least they can hope to build a somewhat competitive GT car, and BoP can help from there.

I'm afraid despite some great racing and spectacular cars GT classes are being ignored by the media in LMS/ILMC. They only way to get some TV attention in a GTE car at Le Mans was to crash badly, ideally taking someone else out, like Magnussen did.

[isynge]

Originally Posted by porsche91722

I've never understood why they didn't just stick with GT. After all, it is their bread and butter. Whatever the future holds for the AMR- One, it's never going to be a real challenger in LMP1. Maybe only in this mythical Petrol class that keeps on being mentioned, but even that would be a stretch. This whole AMR-1 project must have been a massive PR disaster for the Aston Martin group. The masses tend to remember recent failures, rather than the great success they have achieved in the past.

The saving grace for Aston Martin is that they're not selling to the masses - they're selling to people with a particular set of aspirations - not all of which are driven by sporting success.

It's a lot like Bell & Ross watches - do their customers really know what the aviation heritage of the images they use in their ads are?

The real danger for Aston Martin is how they spin this to AMR-ONE customers, the provenance is going away for them really quickly. Or are they perhaps running a bit of a roll and claiming this is as Ford P68 situation?

For Aston Martin to sell road cars they need something that competes, and something that looks cool. They've got that with the Lola in spades, and being amongst the rare breed of people who've seen an AMR-ONE in the flesh I reckon it too is a saleable share. A slickly produced presence in LMP1 where they still end up losing to Audi/Peugeot is fine for them, people will still buy on the back of a nicely photographed LMP1 (regardless of results) and a good salesman.

[nasdriv87]

i'm wondering myself which gt aston martin should stick with and win a race...

vantage ?!?!? don't think so...

maybe a new engine in AMR-One...

[AGD]

Originally Posted by porsche91722

The masses tend to remember recent failures, rather than the great success they have achieved in the past.

That's a good point especially when someone pulls off a massive failure like the AMR-One. People will probably remember the AMR-One more than the Lola AMR V12 even though the Lola has had quite a bit of success. It will almost certainly end up with quite a few wins in the ALMS this year and maybe the championship (seems unlikely if Dyson can keep finishing). It also won the LMS championship. Ok, it did not beat the Audi and Peugeot, but it did beat the factory Pescarolos and factory Orecas. Those aren't chumps.

If the AMR-One LMP1 is dead, I wonder if they could take the chassis, make it cost-capped, and put a Vantage engine or something in it and let it take a crack at winning the LMS championship or maybe the LMP2 titles in the WEC or the ALMS. It may still have a tough time against the HPDs and Nissans given the struggles of the Vantage V8 GTE, but it'll probably be more competitive than what the AMR-One can offer. LMP1 is a lofty goal for AMR, but it may not make sense given their budget. They may have to make too many compromises. I mean, look at the driver lineup they will send to Laguna. Adrian is great and Primat is ok, but the privateer Muscle Milk team will probably have a better lineup if Pickett does not drive. But, of course, they need the money from drivers to keep going. AMR may have to make too many compromises to stay in LMP1 especially if they insist on making their own equipment.

Anyway, I wonder what this announcement means for AMR-One customers like Jota.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by nasdriv87

i'm wondering myself which gt aston martin should stick with and win a race...

vantage ?!?!? don't think so...

Surely the Vantage is miles better than the M3 as a base car for GTE. The difference is that BMW actually work on theirs and keep spending on the project.

[vyselegend]

Getting back to the Lola for the rest of the season is the right move. There are two very important things for AMR right now:

1. Getting th AMR ONE sorted out, and develop it as fast as possible.This can't be done on race week-end given the state of the car, so they need real private test days.

2. Sticking to their commitments. Right now the championship they've commited themself to has run four races, of which they missed three and completed two race laps of the other one... This is really hurting their credibitily! Also, I don't know the details but normally you get fined for missing events (appart Sebring I know).Although I suspect they managed to avoid that because ACO will always tweak things for car makers...

The Lola-Aston is a proven race winer (albeit not against diesels). It's a very good basis and allow the team to actually keep racing, which is important because right now they must feel a bit rusted from their lack of competitive running.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

It's not like we couldn't see this coming--Dagys said that this might happen weeks ago, fans have been asking for it to happen, and the AMR-One, to put it bluntly, has been a bit of a disaster.

AMR themselves told everyone what the situation was weeks ago.

The car has been independantly inspected and given a clean bill of health.

The team is commited to further race outings, the Lola allows them to continue racing and develop the AMR-One in private.

Everything else is speculation.

[KA]

Originally Posted by vyselegend

Getting back to the Lola for the rest of the season is the right move. There are two very important things for AMR right now:

1. Getting th AMR ONE sorted out, and develop it as fast as possible.This can't be done on race week-end given the state of the car, so they need real private test days.

2. Sticking to their commitments. Right now the championship they've commited themself to has run four races, of which they missed three and completed two race laps of the other one... This is really hurting their credibitily! Also, I don't know the details but normally you get fined for missing events (appart Sebring I know).Although I suspect they managed to avoid that because ACO will always tweak things for car makers...

The Lola-Aston is a proven race winer (albeit not against diesels). It's a very good basis and allow the team to actually keep racing, which is important because right now they must feel a bit rusted from their lack of competitive running.

To be honest, with the benefit of hindsight they maybe went at this the wrong way round.
Perhaps it would have been better to have started the season with the Lolas while working the AMR-One up to race-readiness in the background, with a view to a mid/late-season debut after Le Mans- there would have certainly been less embarrassment for Prodrive and Aston that way, because even if they'd ended up racing the Lola all season, at least there'd have been no missed races, and no very public meltdowns by a clearly not-race-ready car and AMR One would probably be perceived by the world at large as a project that was running behind schedule and had been pushed back to 2012, rather than a complete failure that may never see the light of day again.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by JAG

The car has been independantly inspected and given a clean bill of health.

Not quite. AMR said something to the extent that the car could be made right with time and money. Well, the Team AGD LMP1 can be made right with time and money! It's all about how much time they need and how much money it will cost to get things right and if they have that kind of money to spend.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

You have to admire AMR for their drive to be different, but taking a "not invented here" approach isn't always a good idea.

Aston Martin's thought process is quite strange. They seem to have no problem doing a blatant rebadge of a lowly Toyota iQ, but yet they don't want people to think their LMP1 was built by someone else!

[JAG]

Originally Posted by AGD

Not quite. AMR said something to the extent that the car could be made right with time and money. Well, the Team AGD LMP1 can be made right with time and money! It's all about how much time they need and how much money it will cost to get things right and if they have that kind of money to spend.

To suggest they can't get it right would assume AMR are incompentent and doesn't take account of their track record with the previous GT1 and P1.

The AMR-One has had two competitive outings, Ricard and Le Mans. Silverstone is only a couple of months after Le Mans, other events are fly away, there isn't sufficiant time for a redesign and testing to be carried out.

Earlier suggestions the team is out of their depth ignores they are competing in the WRC against Peugeot's and Audi's sister companies. An arena that is as competitive and tecnhinically demanding as P1 and F1.

Aston Martin's thought process is quite strange. They seem to have no problem doing a blatant rebadge of a lowly Toyota iQ, but yet they don't want people to think their LMP1 was built by someone else!

The iQ rebage is needed to secure Astons very existence, there's an EU law to reduce manufctuers overall emmissions. Badging the Lexus LFA would be a more relevant comparison.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by AGD

Not quite. AMR said something to the extent that the car could be made right with time and money. Well, the Team AGD LMP1 can be made right with time and money! It's all about how much time they need and how much money it will cost to get things right and if they have that kind of money to spend.

To suggest they can't get it right would assume AMR are incompentent and doesn't take account of their track record with the previous GT1 and P1.

The AMR-One has had two competitive outings, Ricard and Le Mans. Silverstone is only a couple of months after Le Mans, other events are fly away, there isn't sufficiant time for a redesign and testing to be carried out.

Earlier suggestions the team is out of their depth ignores they are competing in the WRC against Peugeot and Audi's sister companies. An arena that is as competitive and tecnhinically demanding as P1 and F1.

Aston Martin's thought process is quite strange. They seem to have no problem doing a blatant rebadge of a lowly Toyota iQ, but yet they don't want people to think their LMP1 was built by someone else!

The iQ rebage is needed to secure Astons very existence, there's an EU law to reduce manufactuers overall emmissions. Badging the Lexus LFA would be a more relevant comparison.

Manufactuers, teams, organisors etc. have clever people onboard. When we as fans see something that doesn't make sense, the default position should be they know something we don't, not they are fools and we could do better.

[canam]

Originally Posted by JAG

Earlier suggestions the team is out of their depth ignores they are competing in the WRC against Peugeot and Audi's sister companies. An arena that is as competitive and tecnhinically demanding as P1 and F1

Agreed. But they had manufacturer money with the Subes. By comparison to those big companies now, they have pocket money--and DR, unlike other LMP manufacturers, only uses other peoples money for his projects. He doesnt put his own cash on the table.

AMR-One will run out of money. The car is junk and not worth spending the money to make it work. DR wont fund it and Aston Martin definitely wont.

[porsche91722]

Originally Posted by canam

Agreed. But they had manufacturer money with the Subes. By comparison to those big companies now, they have pocket money--and DR, unlike other LMP manufacturers, only uses other peoples money for his projects. He doesnt put his own cash on the table.

AMR-One will run out of money. The car is junk and not worth spending the money to make it work. DR wont fund it and Aston Martin definitely wont.

This was my point, in an earlier post. What does this do for the integrity of David Richards and Aston Martin. If I was a prospective buyer, I'd be having second thoughts about buying an Aston Martin, irrespective of their racing heritage. Evan with my aspirations, I would be looking elsewhere. The whole project as been particularly tacky, in the way it has been handled.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by canam

AMR-One will run out of money. The car is junk and not worth spending the money to make it work. DR wont fund it and Aston Martin definitely wont.

As with 90% of the posts in this thread, speculation....................

They'll be out racing, adding to the spectacle, what will be, will be with regards to the AMR-One.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by JAG

To suggest they can't get it right would assume AMR are incompentent and doesn't take account of their track record with the previous GT1 and P1.

Competence has nothing to do with it. It's about the money. Audi and Peugeot probably could not have built what they have built with a shoestring budget. Other teams with smaller budgets have managed to make the best of their situation by not spending money foolishly. Going the Lola route was probably a smart move by AMR. Going the AMR-One route with a tight budget and little test time may end up being not such a smart move. It is to be seen what they will do for next year, but they have not helped themselves gain the trust and sponsorship they will need with their pathetic showing so far this season. Hopefully they can find some success with the Lola and maybe that will help them find some money. Or at least it may help them keep the funding they have!

The iQ rebage is needed to secure Astons very existence, there's an EU law to reduce manufactuers overall emmissions. Badging the Lexus LFA would be a more relevant comparison.

What does the LFA have to do with anything? If Aston decided they did not have the money to develop their own small car, fine. I guess going the rebadge route might have been all they could do. It's probably smarter to rebadge something proven like the iQ instead of throwing something together with little money and no development time. The thing is that logic also applies to racing cars as well.

The funny thing is that they probably have a lot more to lose in terms of their reputation by rebadging a street car than they do by using a Lola race car - especially when the race car is running pretty well. But, whatever, maybe they have learned from their experience and hopefully they have not shot themselves in the foot so much so that they can't return next year. Hopefully they will bring something to the track whose performance is stronger than their rhetoric.

[canam]

Originally Posted by JAG

As with 90% of the posts in this thread, speculation....................

As with 100% of Dave Richards' statements.............pure PR 'spin' ie garbage.

Only in relation to AMR-One though. The percentage drops to 98% on other issues.

"They will be out racing"....who. AMR? No. (Fernandes/Primat deal in the remaining rounds of the ILMC is structured to keep the lawyers from the doors of AMR)

Privateers. Yes--driving Prodrive modified Aston Martins or Lolas

These privateers will be adding to the spectacle most definitely.

[JayBMS]

In other Aston Martin news, Prodrive has bought hella's old site and we will be moving in 18 months.